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  #21  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2022, 8:41 PM
jammer139 jammer139 is offline
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Interesting article on the urban sprawl issues from a Mississauga perspective.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...ross-southern/
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  #22  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2022, 9:23 PM
ssiguy ssiguy is offline
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London certainly sprawls but not any more than any other Canadian cities. Despite Vancouver's claim of density, it sprawls forever into the Fraser Valley.

Big city urbanites always bitch about cities sprawling but not so much their own. This is because if you live in a bigger city in a pre-1960 neighbourhood, you can get everything you want so they never actually see the sprawl going up in the suburbs. In midsize cities like London, you are often all over the city for different things so you encounter it all the time.

To my way of thinking sprawl is when a city develops huge low density areas outside the already urban ones where there is still a lot of land available in the city for infill. In a fast growing city, with a relatively higher density inner area like London, sprawl is somewhat unavoidable. Yes, you read that right, London is a fairly high density city for it's size. London has quite a solid built urban form and there is almost no where in the pre-1960 areas of the city that has more than one block of undeveloped land.

The problem with trying to contain sprawl is that it requires not just the city to try to contain it. If the city decides to greatly increase density requirements, people will simply move outside of it's borders. We see this in London as Komoka, Kilworth, St.Thomas, and Strathroy are booming in both population and development and there is not a damn thing the city can do about it.

If London wants to really control urban sprawl it must also convince the districts right outside it's borders to do the same and chances are poor that they will as all those new people and developments bring a lot of new tax revenue.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2022, 1:16 AM
jammer139 jammer139 is offline
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The challenge for these bedroom communities on the periphery is getting access to water and sewer services and in some cases high speed internet. Schools can also be an issue.


In the case of London will they agree to extend access to water and sewers to communities outside the city? And at what cost to the county municipalities. Will the province step in to mediate in cases of disagreement? The pressure to develop lands around Arva could increase in the coming years I expect. County development fees could be substantially less then in London and developers will pressure them to allow low density sub divisions.



London has a number of brown field and under developed areas that are great opportunities for much higher density. LPH lands, McCormicks, Byron gravel pit, SoHo hospital lands and the Horton and Wellington rd corridors, Springbank Dr between Wharncliffe and Wonderland. Wharncliffe Rd south of the Thames river all the way to Lambeth, Adelaide st and Hamilton rd.


The downtown area should do away with any density or height restrictions entirely. The city should focus on insuring that the core has substantial water, sewer and power capacity to add 10,000 plus showers and TV's easily. Development fees for green field new subdivisions can be dramatically increased to discourage sprawl and extending city services to external municipalities declined as a matter of policy except in the rarest of cases. Build up not out is a keystone in the London Plan.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2022, 2:37 AM
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Pimpmasterdac Pimpmasterdac is offline
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End of the day the only way this gets resolved is if the province makes a drastic changes to municipal structure is in the name of sustainable housing & development management. When there was debate about London's annexation of Lambeth/Westminster in the early 1990s, one of the proposed solutions was to combine London, Lambeth, Strathroy and all areas in Middlesex country into the super "City of Middlesex" akin to how Chatham-Kent was eventually set. Even this was considered an extreme step in the early 1990s as London and its population would dominate the new city, and history has shown Lambeth and Westminster are ignored when absorbed into London. There's the additional issue of St Thomas being in a different county and no reason to coordinate with London.

I do agree having a County or Regional government to management development makes sense, but it would be a tough sell to the power hungry & self-important politicians and NIMBY neighborhoods to give up their "vetos" to another authority. That's why it would have to be the province doing some serious municipal restructuring, and the fact that London isn't apart of the GTA means won't happen anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
The problem with trying to contain sprawl is that it requires not just the city to try to contain it. If the city decides to greatly increase density requirements, people will simply move outside of it's borders. We see this in London as Komoka, Kilworth, St.Thomas, and Strathroy are booming in both population and development and there is not a damn thing the city can do about it.

If London wants to really control urban sprawl it must also convince the districts right outside it's borders to do the same and chances are poor that they will as all those new people and developments bring a lot of new tax revenue.
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Originally Posted by jammer139 View Post
In the case of London will they agree to extend access to water and sewers to communities outside the city? And at what cost to the county municipalities. Will the province step in to mediate in cases of disagreement? The pressure to develop lands around Arva could increase in the coming years I expect. County development fees could be substantially less then in London and developers will pressure them to allow low density sub divisions.

Last edited by Pimpmasterdac; Jan 4, 2022 at 1:16 AM.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2022, 3:08 AM
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I think a lot of people, including those quoted in that article, think of "sprawl" too simplistically. We can't label all outward growth as "sprawl", and we can't label any upward growth as the "anti-thesis of sprawl" either. It's the outward growth outpacing the upward growth, the amount of land area growing faster than the population that really defines sprawl. In other words, "sprawl" is a verb, not a noun. It is the process, not the product.

Mississauga could have thought further ahead and done more to promote intensification, redevelopment, preserve undeveloped land for future high density, and get people using transit, cycling, and walking, but it's not like it didn't do those things at all. The problem is, Mississauga didn't do enough of that, and London shouldn't have much problem doing better.

I think probably the biggest thing that suburbs all over fail to do is build corridors for transit, to reduce the gaps between routes, and so reduce the walking distances to the bus stops. You can see this in the south part of Mississauga, which is almost devoid of bus routes for this reason. There are just no roads or bridges for the buses to use! South of Dundas Street, the only other local road that crosses the Credit River is Lakeshore Road, and that's 4km away, meaning a 4km gap in bus service. You can see this same problem in Vaughan, with Langstaff Road broken up into multiple pieces, and the York Region not providing their own bus service along the Steeles corridor, resulting huge gaps in the York Region Transit network, and it kills their transit ridership.

Permeability. That is the number one thing that separates the inner city from the outer suburb. Mississauga and Vaughan are not lacking in density. What they are really lacking is permeability, to allow for a complete transit network, and reduce the distances required for walking and cycling, including to the bus stops. I think it is the lack of permeability more than lack of density that makes Mississauga and Vaughan car-oriented and it is the lack of permeability rather than lack of density that will hamper their efforts to become transit-oriented. The newer subdivisions are much MUCH more permeable than the older subdivisions, with much more thoroughfares and many TOD measures, but maybe too little too late.

Even from just a cursory glance at a map, I can see the problem of lack of permeability in outer parts of London, like Westmount and Byron that are lacking thoroughfares. Probably not easy to take transit from Westmount to Oakridge even though the two neighbourhoods are next to each other. And on the north side of the city, there are the Gainsborough/Windermere/Killaly Road and the Sarnia St/Huron Rd corridors both broken into multiple pieces, so no chance to build transit corridors there. That's a four kilometre gap the Oxford Street corridor and the Fanshawe Park Road corridor - these are the only two major corridors north of downtown for London Transit Commission to use, and this will have a significant impact on how car-dependent or how transit-oriented London becomes as it continues to grow outward. Hopefully, London will do better with new subdivisions, as Mississauga has done with Churchill Meadows, but as I said, maybe too little too late, major permanent damage has already been done to the transit network in London as it has in Mississauga.

Thinking ahead, the long term instead of the short term, that's the most important thing. And maybe that's what really defines "sprawl". It is just about the present, it's not about the future.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2022, 4:18 PM
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If growth continues outside of London's boundaries at a ever-increasing pace, then we need a regional government. That way these communities are kept in check with a broad-range of planning policies and they pay taxes that benefit the whole metro area.

It's either that or expand London's city limits once again to absorb these places. Hamilton and Ottawa have huge city limits for this reason- for example.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2022, 5:37 PM
Djeffery Djeffery is offline
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I can just imagine what Glanworth would look like today if 30 years ago, London took more to the north and west and less to the south lol.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2022, 7:48 PM
jammer139 jammer139 is offline
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I suspect Glanworth would have changed little because it is downwind of the London dump, Toronto dump and the "diaper" burning plant. Nobody wants to live downwind of these facilities. These facilities are a very significant impediment to future developments in the south end of the City's land area.


Hence why you see all the development to the west, north and east.



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I can just imagine what Glanworth would look like today if 30 years ago, London took more to the north and west and less to the south lol.
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  #29  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2022, 6:25 PM
jammer139 jammer139 is offline
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Report on Inclusionary Zoning being discussed at Planning committee. Consultant report has alot to digest for City Hall planners and politicians.



https://pub-london.escribemeetings.c...cumentId=89583

Last edited by jammer139; Feb 2, 2022 at 7:09 PM.
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  #30  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2022, 10:50 PM
Ryeguy01 Ryeguy01 is offline
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Today when I was driving back from work I noticed a sign south of Regina Mundi. The sign read land for sale at 87 acres for Future development and it’s by CBRE.
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  #31  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2022, 11:01 PM
Djeffery Djeffery is offline
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Wonder if that's the same land Joe Swan made an election announcement about back in 2014 for a Leamington greenhouse company that was going to build a large greenhouse and food processing plant in that area.
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  #32  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2022, 11:56 PM
jammer139 jammer139 is offline
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That would be outside London's urban growth boundary. So likely zoned agricultural or industrial. Little chance of any residential future being downwind of the waste dump.
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  #33  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2022, 4:12 PM
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