Winnipeg | University of Manitoba | Southwood Circle

[thebasketballgeek]

Almost forgot here are the land uses and the respective areas:

[thebasketballgeek]

Approved by Assiniboia Committee unanimously with no opposition from residents.

[zalf]

Excellent news. Maybe there's hope for this city yet.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Approved by Assiniboia Committee unanimously with no opposition from residents.

Is it ok to drool after seeing this?

[esquire]

Could be a huge improvement for the U of M. But the maps look to me to present something very different compared to the street-level renderings. The maps convey the impression of something like Smartpark.

[thurmas]

Finally some progress can't wait for it to finally start

[plrh]

Originally Posted by esquire

Could be a huge improvement for the U of M. But the maps look to me to present something very different compared to the street-level renderings. The maps convey the impression of something like Smartpark.

I agree. All of the buildings have lawns on the map view. There are no lawns on the street level view. Smart Park residential phase.

[Sheepish]

Is it just me, or is this the kind of development that the Forks would/should aspire to? And/Or the land west of the tracks facing Main St? (I'm not suggesting instead of the development at UofM).

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by Sheepish

Is it just me, or is this the kind of development that the Forks would/should aspire to? And/Or the land west of the tracks facing Main St? (I'm not suggesting instead of the development at UofM).

Uofm and forks development is like a snail vs a sloth.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Uofm and forks development is like a snail vs a sloth.

I'll take it as a win. Thought out, future-oriented. Not like every other new housing development where money is the only driver and will put the city into further infrastructure debt.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Uofm and forks development is like a snail vs a sloth.

ha ha...good analogy.

The Forks delays have been of their own making. Once they get the green light, all the developers will be in place and ready to go. It was one of the reasons many small buildings was chosen over a few big ones. That kind of development is easier to do quickly in Winnipeg.

The U of M plan is 50 years for a reason. Big buildings take a long time to build out in winnipeg.

[Gravity Wins]

Originally Posted by Sheepish

Is it just me, or is this the kind of development that the Forks would/should aspire to? And/Or the land west of the tracks facing Main St? (I'm not suggesting instead of the development at UofM).

Totally agree. Every city deserves walkable, lively streets like this. It would be a shame if Winnipeg only developed it in the bubble of a University campus. Great news for the campus though and will hopefully have a ripple effect that eventually reaches more areas. Whether that happens before 2050 though remains to be seen lol

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by esquire

Could be a huge improvement for the U of M. But the maps look to me to present something very different compared to the street-level renderings. The maps convey the impression of something like Smartpark.

totally agree....its just like Kapyong. The master plan shows big box buildings surrounded by parking but the eye level views are of vibrant streets and smaller urban buildings focused on the street.

The master plan will not create the urban condition they are presenting in the renderings. It will be smart park 2.0. Island buildings with big spaces in between. Not walkable at all.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by trueviking

totally agree....its just like Kapyong. The master plan shows big box buildings surrounded by parking but the eye level views are of vibrant streets and smaller urban buildings focused on the street.

The master plan will not create the urban condition they are presenting in the renderings. It will be smart park 2.0. Island buildings with big spaces in between. Not walkable at all.

So why does it have to be that way? What are the practical reasons pushing the U of M to repeat a textbook example of how not to do a greenfield development that is sitting right at the other end of their campus?

I don't get the reason behind this sense of inevitability, as though Smartpark was the only conceivable development model the U of M could possibly follow.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by esquire

So why does it have to be that way? What are the practical reasons pushing the U of M to repeat a textbook example of how not to do a greenfield development that is sitting right at the other end of their campus?

I don't get the reason behind this sense of inevitability, as though Smartpark was the only conceivable development model the U of M could possibly follow.

It's in suburbia so it will have obscene parking minimums, despite being "mixed use" and close to both transit and a walk-in destination.

The university likely doesn't want to deal with selling the myriad small lots necessary for granular development. They'll sell or lease big blocks, which means big buildings. Combined with parking minimums, expect those podiums to be massive parking garages.

Finally, it will be built by suburban Winnipeg developers. Look at the Plaza road "TOD". It's shit. It's next to a transit station but you'd hardly know it looking at the orientation of the development and swathes of parking.

Don't be surprised when little to no retail actually materializes.

That lively looking render just looks like they stole it from some other, better development.




Other concerns, unrelated to the development's plan--more to do with the UofM's involvement:

The UofM is a Brazil(the movie)-esque, Keynsian dystopia. How are the entrenched stakeholders committed to ruining campus life going to react to the spectre of competition at the gates?

Will Aramark cafeterias be the only restaurants allowed?

Will Special Functions get to veto any pizzerias or bakeries, lest anyone not buy their cardboard fare?

Will campus janitors go on strike until they get the contract to pretend to clean the corridors in the new buildings?

Will UMSU demand that all businesses be student-run cooperatives that either lose piles of money, or make just enough money to create no-show jobs for their bosses at CFS?

[thebasketballgeek]

TV I'll give you an appropriate response later on today in regards to street layout, but I really feel the need to address some of Biguc's concerns.

Originally Posted by biguc

It's in suburbia so it will have obscene parking minimums, despite being "mixed use" and close to both transit and a walk-in destination.

There's no parking minimums only parking guidelines that recommend 0.75 stalls/unit. Compared to our obscene parking minimums of 1.5 stalls/unit it's a massive improvement.

Originally Posted by biguc

The university likely doesn't want to deal with selling the myriad small lots necessary for granular development. They'll sell or lease big blocks, which means big buildings. Combined with parking minimums, expect those podiums to be massive parking garages.

Yes this is true there are only like 8 blocks in between Sifton and Markham. However, it's zoned RMU so if any parking is required it will be underground rather then an above grade parkade because the ground floor is for commercial/campus. Also, the U of M as is has a PLETHORA of parking there is no need to add extra when its virtually unnecessary.

Originally Posted by biguc

Finally, it will be built by suburban Winnipeg developers. Look at the Plaza road "TOD". It's shit. It's next to a transit station but you'd hardly know it looking at the orientation of the development and swathes of parking.

The plaza "TOD" is not complete by any means and yes there is too much parking, but it's being built by Calgary developers not Winnipeg ones. We also have to consider rather then the buildings facing the TOD they made the decision to have the buildings face the street with no setback instead. Time will tell if that was a good or bad decision.

Originally Posted by biguc

Don't be surprised when little to no retail actually materializes.

Impossible

Originally Posted by biguc

That lively looking render just looks like they stole it from some other, better development.

That's plagiarism and we know how serious the U of M take plagiarism. As a student currently attending campus I can assure there is not a chance they stole the render.

Other concerns, unrelated to the development's plan--more to do with the UofM's involvement:

Originally Posted by biguc

The UofM is a Brazil(the movie)-esque, Keynsian dystopia. How are the entrenched stakeholders committed to ruining campus life going to react to the spectre of competition at the gates?

Won't disagree with this take, but those stakeholders were involved in the planning process. They wouldn't have let UM properties present this to council without significant consultation. This project started in 2012 why do you think it took 10 years to finally get the project approved? Because those said stakeholders were wreaking havoc and trying to create a smart park but common sense prevailed in the end.

Originally Posted by biguc

Will Aramark cafeterias be the only restaurants allowed?

I've been a student for 4 years and not once have I needed to eat at one of those shitty Aramark cafeterias. Let's just say they're completely outdated and will be a minor insignificant part of this development (if they even bother).

Originally Posted by biguc

Will campus janitors go on strike until they get the contract to pretend to clean the corridors in the new buildings?

If you've been to a Walmart recently they have automated cleaning with their fancy new robots. I am sure that a research based University such as U of M will experiment with automation in many different facets of this development including cleaning. Who knows if Janitors will even exist by the time this project is done.

Originally Posted by biguc

Will UMSU demand that all businesses be student-run cooperatives that either lose piles of money, or make just enough money to create no-show jobs for their bosses at CFS?

UMSU is useless. As a student in campus they hold no power. Not a single restaruant in the University Centre is a student run business, rather local Winnipeg businesses (except Subway). They will for sure try to make most of the businesses run there Winnipeg based, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are international businesses on the Sifton high street for example.

[GreyGarden]

Interesting - the street renderings and the general scale is very promising. It'd be so nice if the UofM actually had a walkable area with shops and restaurants. It looks like they at least have some understanding of 'complete communities' and 'high streets' which their previous attempts at development certainly haven't.

[thebasketballgeek]

Am I looking at something different then everyone else? It’s literally podiums on a tower similar to the “Vancouverism” style that many places in the planet start to emulate which is a highrise on top of a 5-6 storey midrise podium. TV respectfully I think you’re misconstruing the massing of the master plan as if it were presented as a render when that’s clearly not the objective of that drawing.

Not only that but where are these parking lots y’all are seeing? I think people here are critically underestimating just how dense it is. Again this is on a scale of density that would fit in Chengdu or Manila never mind Winnipeg. Even the master plan shows a high concentration of building density throughout the whole site. I’m a lot more optimistic about this then the Kapyong Barracks development to say the least.

[(sub)urban]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Am I looking at something different then everyone else? It’s literally podiums on a tower similar to the “Vancouverism” style that many places in the planet start to emulate which is a highrise on top of a 5-6 storey midrise podium. TV respectfully I think you’re misconstruing the massing of the master plan as if it were presented as a render when that’s clearly not the objective of that drawing.

Not only that but where are these parking lots y’all are seeing? I think people here are critically underestimating just how dense it is. Again this is on a scale of density that would fit in Chengdu or Manila never mind Winnipeg. Even the master plan shows a high concentration of building density throughout the whole site. I’m a lot more optimistic about this then the Kapyong Barracks development to say the least.

I think people here are severely overestimating how much space there is between Sifton Rd. and Markham. 6 major multi-use residential high-rises will feel very dense, even if they leave room for some trees and lawn in front of one or two of the buildings, as shown in the bird's eye rendering.

and as much as the U of M deserves some criticism for Smart Park being a lame industrial park, the actual U of M campus actually is pretty walkable. Campus just suffers because Winnipeg is such a commuter city that much like Downtown Winnipeg, all the stores, restaurants and services on campus close at like 5PM when the entire campus population gets in their cars and drives back home.

This development adding 2,000 to 3,000 units actually within walking distance of campus will do so much good for campus life. Unlike student developments being built on Pembina, this development will actually be within realistic walking distance of the school.

[trueviking]

No respect required bbg.

If you look closely at the plan, the buildings don’t create a proper street wall. The space between buildings is almost as wide as the buildings themselves. Each block is maybe 60% open space. It’s drawn as green which could be fields of grass but more likely parking. Either way, the buildings are not in an urban configuration. They are more like pavilions in a park. Individual objects that are not working together to create streets.

To create walkable and successful commercial streets the buildings need to be close together and right at the sidewalk, creating a strong street edge that connects to pedestrians.

Compare how the buildings address the sidewalk in the plan with one block of Corydon.