Cycling in Canada

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by shreddog

My recent experience commuting in Canada was Vancouver, which I'd say may be the gold standard for Canada (not wishing to start a fight here). If Copenhagen/Amsterdam are the gold standard for Europe, I'd put them at 100, Vancouver at 50 and Brussels around 70-75. Some parts of the city are better than others.

Having biked extensively in Vancouver, Toronto and (to a lesser extent) Montreal, I'd say Vancouver's infrastructure is easily the worst of the bunch at this point (though still not terrible). Its reputation as a bike-friendly city is largely a legacy view: it was a pioneer of bike lanes in North America, and 15-20 years ago it was absolutely the gold standard. It seems to be resting on its laurels though, and hasn't really built much new infrastructure of note in recent years. Meanwhile, other cities have quietly been making impressive improvements to their own bike networks.

Kilgore's criticisms are fair: Vancouver lacks dedicated infrastructure outside of the downtown peninsula & recreational trails, has few bike lines on commercial streets & major thoroughfares, has issues with gaps in the connectivity of the system, and routes that are often meandering; while its roads can otherwise be quite unfriendly to cyclists.


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In other news, the redesigned intersection of the Bloor & St. George bike lanes in Toronto has been completed, which looks to be a big improvement:


https://x.com/cityoftoronto/status/1...twsrc%5Etfw%7C


https://www.blogto.com/city/2024/08/...eorge-closure/

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Having biked extensively in Vancouver, Toronto and (to a lesser extent) Montreal, I'd say Vancouver's infrastructure is easily the worst of the bunch at this point (though still not terrible). Its reputation as a bike-friendly city is largely a legacy view: it was a pioneer of bike lanes in North America, and 15-20 years ago it was absolutely the gold standard. It seems to be resting on its laurels though, and hasn't really built much new infrastructure of note in recent years. Meanwhile, other cities have quietly been making impressive improvements to their own bike networks.

As I said in my original post, I wasn't trying to start a war, and after having done some semi-serious riding in Toronto, can definitely agree that outside the core, Toronto is light years ahead. While Vancouver has many nice recreational trails, having recently ridden from High park to DT along Bloor and College, there is nothing like that. From what I say in 4 day's of riding, Toronto is definitely a better standard bearer. Can't offer an "handson" opinion on Montreal, but I do know that there has been a fair bit done there.

All that said, even the best in Canada is still far behind Brussels, which is near the bottom end of western european cities.

Now if we could only do something about the cars - twice in Toronto we encountered people who felt it appropriate to park in bike lanes!

[Kilgore Trout]

I think part of the issue is commuting vs. cycling for everyday activities. Vancouver is probably better for bike commuting than either Montreal or Toronto because you're spending a lot of your time on residential bikeways that are very pleasant to ride on because they have modal filtering, good tree cover and very little car traffic. It's pretty delightful to ride clear across Vancouver on 10th Avenue.

But as soon as you want to go to the grocery store on your bike, or to a bar, or a concert or a friend's place for dinner, that's when Vancouver's bike network falls apart. It's conceived for long commuting trips along designated routes rather than a diversity of needs. As MonkeyRonin pointed out, that's where Toronto and Montreal have both made serious gains.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Now if we could only do something about the cars - twice in Toronto we encountered people who felt it appropriate to park in bike lanes!

At least it's not as bad as New York:

• Video Link

[Kilgore Trout]

That's a classic video but New York now has a lot of protected bike lanes that are pretty impressive. Being New York, though, everything is still super janky and chaotic.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I think part of the issue is commuting vs. cycling for everyday activities. Vancouver is probably better for bike commuting than either Montreal or Toronto because you're spending a lot of your time on residential bikeways that are very pleasant to ride on because they have modal filtering, good tree cover and very little car traffic. It's pretty delightful to ride clear across Vancouver on 10th Avenue.

For me it's just the opposite. Perhaps things are different here, but I find the side street bikeways are great when I'm just toodling around running errands or getting some exercise. But when I'm commuting I'm in a hurry. I just want to get where I'm going asap and the side streets tend to be frustratingly slow. Most have stop signs at every intersection including with other side streets while when side street meet the major arterial only the side streets get stop signs. So the major street has far fewer intersection stops.

Then when the side street gets to a perpendicular major street and just gets a stop sign, it can be time consuming to get a break in traffic to cross the entire major street whereas when two major streets meet there tends to be traffic lights. The traffic lights are better in those cases since while you sometimes have to wait at a red, you can also get lucky and hit green and not even need to slow down. Plus you're guaranteed to get a green within a limited amount of time whereas just waiting for a break in traffic has no guarantee. It could be a couple second or several minutes. In those cases I often just get off and use the pedestrian cross walk if one is handy.

So yes the side street bikeways are much more pleasant with less noise, pollution and danger, but when I'm in a hurry, I don't have time for such niceties.

[Kilgore Trout]

You're talking about side street cycling but the bikeways in Vancouver are designed with bikes in mind. There are a lot of mini-roundabouts instead of stop signs – something common in Aus/NZ but not in North America outside of BC. And at major streets, there are traffic lights that can be activated by push buttons designed specifically for cyclists. On the whole it's an extremely fast and pleasant way to get around, but you need all of those elements in place, plus modal filtering so there is very little car traffic. Definitely not the same as riding on some random side street, in which case I'd definitely agree with you.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

You're talking about side street cycling but the bikeways in Vancouver are designed with bikes in mind. There are a lot of mini-roundabouts instead of stop signs – something common in Aus/NZ but not in North America outside of BC. And at major streets, there are traffic lights that can be activated by push buttons designed specifically for cyclists. On the whole it's an extremely fast and pleasant way to get around, but you need all of those elements in place, plus modal filtering so there is very little car traffic. Definitely not the same as riding on some random side street, in which case I'd definitely agree with you.

Yeah our version is basically just designating certain side streets as bikeways because they think they're good streets to bike on but without really doing anything to optimize them. Well other than a few traffic calming measures like speed bumps and putting a few signs saying bike route. And giving it a special colour on the bike network map of course.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I think part of the issue is commuting vs. cycling for everyday activities. Vancouver is probably better for bike commuting than either Montreal or Toronto because you're spending a lot of your time on residential bikeways that are very pleasant to ride on because they have modal filtering, good tree cover and very little car traffic. It's pretty delightful to ride clear across Vancouver on 10th Avenue.

But as soon as you want to go to the grocery store on your bike, or to a bar, or a concert or a friend's place for dinner, that's when Vancouver's bike network falls apart. It's conceived for long commuting trips along designated routes rather than a diversity of needs. As MonkeyRonin pointed out, that's where Toronto and Montreal have both made serious gains.

Before riding in Toronto recently, I would hve agreed with you. I am intimate with 10th Ave (as I used to live on it) and have riden from VGH to both ends many times over the years. While it is more scenic to ride than Bloor, I find riding from High Park to Spadina way more efficient and safer (albeit less "pleasant". While I appreciate the effot Vancouver has done in creating bike friendly roads (I used to commute to Richmond via bike and have riden most N-S routes west of Boundary), I find dedicated bike lanes more efficient than bike friendly roads. Again, Vancouver is a very good city to bike in and I think that they've done a good job, but I no longer think it is the "gold standard" it once was. I think the comment about them resting on their laurels has some truth to it.

Obviously things are better than they once were, let's just hope that they continue to push the envelope. As the articles I posted earlier about Brussels, it is possible to vastly improve cycling infrastructure without it being a "war on cars".

[Acajack]

Ça va bien.

https://x.com/globalnewsto/status/1837099516454912030

[niwell]

I want to believe this is one of those "leaks" to float something divisive that will be pulled back to sneak other stuff in / actually put forward a watered down version. But who knows. Doug REALLY likes to get involved in the minutia of Toronto governance. Though he's also very intimidated by Olivia Chow (it's actually kinda comical).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

I want to believe this is one of those "leaks" to float something divisive that will be pulled back to sneak other stuff in / actually put forward a watered down version. But who knows. Doug REALLY likes to get involved in the minutia of Toronto governance. Though he's also very intimidated by Olivia Chow (it's actually kinda comical).

Well, she does look way better in a Caribbean bikini costume than he does!

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Doady

At least it's not as bad as New York:

• Video Link

This is well worth your 3 minutes.

In fairness they do actually ticket people blocking lanes, blocking intersections and general bad behaviour that is completely ignored in our cities.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

In fairness they do actually ticket people blocking lanes, blocking intersections and general bad behaviour that is completely ignored in our cities.

Toronto has a specialized unit that cycles around and gives people tickets for parking in bike lanes, in no stopping zones, etc. One of them is on TikTok, she's well worth a follow.

[Doady]

I have mentioned this before, and Doug Ford's plan to ban bike lanes highlights this problem again. I think the City of Toronto made a huge mistake building a huge cycling network for the downtown core that completely excludes North York, Etobicoke, and Scarborough. The result is that people who live in these places suffer from the bike lanes while seeing zero benefit from them. From the beginning, the City's approach to building a cycling network was divisive by design and so it has become divisive politically. The City of Toronto brought this ban not only upon itself but also the rest of Ontario.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Doady

I have mentioned this before, and Doug Ford's plan to ban bike lanes highlights this problem again. I think the City of Toronto made a huge mistake building a huge cycling network for the downtown core that completely excludes North York, Etobicoke, and Scarborough. The result is that people who live in these places suffer from the bike lanes while seeing zero benefit from them. From the beginning, the City's approach to building a cycling network was divisive by design and so it has become divisive politically. The City of Toronto brought this ban not only upon itself but also the rest of Ontario.

Suburban people were also against the "downtown relief line" since that was perceived at the "downtown elites" getting something they weren't even though they would directly benefit from the additional capacity. In fact, suburban areas actually get a net subsidy due to how much more it costs to provide infrastructure there since it's harder to connect things that are farther apart. Yet that stuff is mostly invisible to the average person.

Fact is, there are some areas that are inherently more suited to some modes than others, and central cities are more suited to transit and biking than lower density suburban areas since things are closer together and there's less available space. And that isn't the city's fault other than the people who allowed so much of the city and metro area to be designed in a suburban format to begin with.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Doady

I have mentioned this before, and Doug Ford's plan to ban bike lanes highlights this problem again. I think the City of Toronto made a huge mistake building a huge cycling network for the downtown core that completely excludes North York, Etobicoke, and Scarborough. The result is that people who live in these places suffer from the bike lanes while seeing zero benefit from them. From the beginning, the City's approach to building a cycling network was divisive by design and so it has become divisive politically. The City of Toronto brought this ban not only upon itself but also the rest of Ontario.

There have been bike lanes added throughout East Toronto including Scarborough. The city has overcompensated with the number of bike lanes particularly on rush hours traffic routes and the design of the Bloor/ St George intersection with one lane in each direction traffic flow and dedicated right turn lanes vs left turn lanes creates needless traffic for anyone on the road. Doug Ford is taking advantage of the growing frustrations among drivers and transit users stuck in traffic next to lightly used bike lanes. There's a lot of things that do not make much sense in regards to the cycling network. It seems to be implemented by bike enthusiasts over sound traffic planning. That's a problem as bikes are not going to win in a war against cars because it's not just cars

[niwell]

Bloor/St. George is one of the most (if not the most) heavily cycled intersections in the city, so I think the design made sense there. I pass through fairly often and there are usually more cyclists than cars, though the latter certainly use up more space. Even in the winter it's pretty heavily cycled. Not sure the reason for dedicated rights instead of lefts though, I suppose due to the heavy pedestrian traffic. On the whole I actually think the cycle tracks on Bloor make driving a bit easier, as at most other intersections they have put in dedicated left turn lanes - the previous configuration had too much weaving and the right lane was almost always unusable due to parked cars and in rush hour illegally parked cars. I can't tell if it's a longer drive as traffic on Bloor has always been atrocious. The exception would be making turns onto Bloor from side streets, though the parked cars are more of an issue for sightlines than the cycle track itself.

Can't speak for the East End as I'm not there as often but I can see that some of the choices are a bit puzzling. However the new bike connections in the West End generally make sense. Wellington is a game changer coming out of downtown.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Suburban people were also against the "downtown relief line" since that was perceived at the "downtown elites" getting something they weren't even though they would directly benefit from the additional capacity. In fact, suburban areas actually get a net subsidy due to how much more it costs to provide infrastructure there since it's harder to connect things that are farther apart. Yet that stuff is mostly invisible to the average person.

Fact is, there are some areas that are inherently more suited to some modes than others, and central cities are more suited to transit and biking than lower density suburban areas since things are closer together and there's less available space. And that isn't the city's fault other than the people who allowed so much of the city and metro area to be designed in a suburban format to begin with.

Most of Toronto's high rise buildings are located in Etobicoke, Scarborough, and North York, these places are some of the most transit-dependent places in North America, the TTC has the highest farebox cost recovery ratio in North America, yet you speak of these places as if they are Arlington, Texas or something, and somehow you wonder why people complain about "downtown elitism".

Mississauga is building bike lanes everywhere, and no doubt North York, Scarborough, and Etobicoke would be doing the same if they were separate from Toronto. If these places aren't dense enough to support cycling, then they should cancel the Finch West LRT. Let cut all those 3-minute bus routes down to 30-minutes while we are at it, then the "suburbanites" will no longer be such a massive burden upon the real city.

[Innsertnamehere]

A total ban on cycling lanes is a mistake but I also think some of the recent lanes implemented by the city are getting to be counterproductive.

Bloor lanes make sense from Dundas east, maybe as far as Runnymede. Further west than That and cyclist volumes are low and traffic volumes high simply because distances between destinations get too great to easily support cycling.

The city’s plans for lane reductions on major arterials because of complaints is also problematic - plans to drop all of Eglinton from 5 to 2 lanes for example (a rationalization to 4 lanes like originally contemplated in Eglinton Connects would be fine) or dropping Parkside Drive to 2 lanes.

Too much lately the city’s reaction to any problem on any street has been “let’s cut lanes”. It’s getting to the point where there are few major arterials in the central city where there are not plans to do so in some form of gestation. Avenue road, lakeshore road, Bloor, Parkside, Eglinton… the list goes on. Often because it’s cheap to lay down some paint. Parkside for example could be fixed with a nice bicycle path and pedestrian path on the west side through High Park.. but nope, gotta kill the lanes. Eglinton literally has a completed design to keep 4 lanes and protected bike lanes (which is partially built!) but nope, gotta cut lanes since it’s a bit cheaper. Avenue is a major arterial with low pedestrian volumes with bike lanes to the east and west, but again, gotta cut vehicle capacity.

A total ban is completely reactionary and not appropriate. But that also doesn’t mean the current approach is appropriate or sustainable either.