PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread II

[japmes]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

SEPTA to explore increasing service for new 76ers arena.
Summary: the arena proposal targets 40% of gameday spectators to use public transit. To reach this goal, SEPTA would have to increase service on all modes (regional rail, buses, and MFL), though no specific plans on how to do this. The 76ers want to include a free SEPTA pass with each ticket to encourage using transit, which would require sponsorships.
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...Pos=0#cxrecs_s

My guess is 40% is a lowball number. With so many transit options to the arena, including walking for those who live/work downtown, I predict the number is closer to 60%.

[chimpskibot]

Originally Posted by japmes

My guess is 40% is a lowball number. With so many transit options to the arena, including walking for those who live/work downtown, I predict the number is closer to 60%.

I'm pretty sure the 76ers said the majority of their spectators come from Philadelphia county and a majority of them use transit. I think policy makers grossly overestimate how many people want to drive and sit in traffic.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

I’m sorry but if you don’t think it’s going to be an absolute shit show driving down there during games then you are delusional

Don't drive!

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

All the talk (broadly, not here) of added traffic bc of the 76ers arena is starting to irk me. Some will drive, but I bet most people will use common sense and take transit. They can get off at regional rail at 8th and walk through the mall 2 blocks to new arena, far fewer blocks than they’d walk at stadium complex. Just build the damn thing. People will adjust accordingly.

As for Chinatown, cities change and evolve frequently. Get over it. No group has a permanent claim to your blocks. Next.

Jefferson Station is at 11th. It is quite literally right beneath the proposed stadium.

[bdurk]

Also, part of the plan is to include a free SEPTA pass with every Sixers ticket. I assure you many suburbanites would figure out how to use the regional rail if it's free for them. That's a huge move on the Sixers part imo

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by bdurk

Also, part of the plan is to include a free SEPTA pass with every Sixers ticket. I assure you many suburbanites would figure out how to use the regional rail if it's free for them. That's a huge move on the Sixers part imo

The Warriors started doing this when they build Chase Center. It's a no brainer. Your ticket includes a digital transit ticket and then the team reimburses BART for however many tickets are used for an event. For the Sixers, it's pennies, but for Septa it's huge. I agree 40% is on the low end but I'll use it for now. Let's say there's 100 events a year with sellout crowds of 18,000. We're talking about 720,000 paid Septa/Patco trips ONE WAY. If you take it there and back, 1.4 million. Some of those would be MFL, Patco, BSL and regional rail obviously.

Septa has been too quiet in not lobbying for this arena more. They don't need to be neutral to not offend Chinatown. They're facing a massive fiscal cliff, they should be saying Septa's long term viability is stronger with a downtown stadium.

[kool-ski]

I was on Eclipse today looking at issued permits and I happen to recall a zoning permit for a residential building at 4318 Market St. in University City issued back on Jun 13, 2023 that either wasn't mentioned here or the high interest rates prevented it from going to the next stage. Not even any renderings were issued. Last checked, it's an abandoned CAMSA Auto Sales lot.

9 STORY 95 UNIT MULTI FAMILY RESIDENCE. UNDERGROUND PARKING. SIZE, LOCATION AND EXTENTS PER PLAN

Developer is University City Apt and KCA Design Associates is the designer.

[Frontst17]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Don't drive!

Oh trust me I’m walking lol. But to drive will be absolutely awful. I actually think the walking percentage reported is too low. If I’m still in South Philly by then I’ll still walk to games

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

I’m sorry but if you don’t think it’s going to be an absolute shit show driving down there during games then you are delusional

People will figure it out and stop driving. The location forces behavioral shifts. Philly can make that transition happen faster by creating a congestion toll for those who want to unnecessarily clog the streets with their cars. And that toll can go towards modernizing and improving transit.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

I’m sorry but if you don’t think it’s going to be an absolute shit show driving down there during games then you are delusional

Lol.

[el don]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

People will figure it out and stop driving. The location forces behavioral shifts. Philly can make that transition happen faster by creating a congestion toll for those who want to unnecessarily clog the streets with their cars. And that toll can go towards modernizing and improving transit.

That would never fly in Philly. It couldn't even get off the ground in NYC. Great article on the pros and cons here by the way, https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news...new-york-city/

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by el don

That would never fly in Philly. It couldn't even get off the ground in NYC. Great article on the pros and cons here by the way, https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news...new-york-city/

People thought a sugar tax wouldn’t happen either.

I got charged the congestion tax in London back in April; we needed a car to drive to Norfolk for the weekend. London traffic was gem compared to the US. The residents there think it’s bad, but it’s relative bc it’s nowhere near as bad as US cities. Even rush hour kept a flow without bumper to bumper.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

I got charged the congestion tax in London back in April; we needed a car to drive to Norfolk for the weekend. London traffic was gem compared to the US. The residents there think it’s bad, but it’s relative bc it’s nowhere near as bad as US cities. Even rush hour kept a flow without bumper to bumper.

I was in London earlier this month. Me and my wife stayed in Westminster and traveled across a wide swath of the city. We were amazed at the lack of traffic on the streets of London, even within the architecturally congested City of London. We could walk in many of the streets of Westminster without worrying about a car hitting us. The lack of traffic also made riding the buses a breeze--even more convenient than the Tube in many instances.

London provided me insight for what Philly, NYC, DC, Boston, and other older city centers could look like with congestion pricing. The benefits to city residents, pedestrians, cyclists, and SEPTA could be amazing, but it would take a few decades for public opinion to shift to the point where congestion pricing would be supported.

[Groundhog]

I'm a season ticket holder in West Philly and while I do the transfer from the trolley to BSL sometimes, more often than not, I drive to South Philly and take the BSL from Point Breeze to avoid the longer commute, parking costs and congestion of the Wells Fargo Center. I can guarantee you that I am by no means alone. At the new location, I'd be taking the trolley direct every game and, if you add in the MFL, 99% of other people coming from West Philly would take public transit. With no transfer, this should also be true for Fishtown/No Libs and anyone else near the El.

Beyond those near transit lines, people from farther away will also use a similar strategy to what I typically do in South Philly - park near a transit line to avoid parking near the stadium, but instead of being limited to just the BSL, they can park near a MFL or trolley line. It will certainly defuse a lot of traffic.

As for the regional rails, I'm more skeptical unless they can expand their hours, but it seems largely moot if the majority of attendees are from the city.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

I was in London earlier this month. Me and my wife stayed in Westminster and traveled across a wide swath of the city. We were amazed at the lack of traffic on the streets of London, even within the architecturally congested City of London. We could walk in many of the streets of Westminster without worrying about a car hitting us. The lack of traffic also made riding the buses a breeze--even more convenient than the Tube in many instances.

London provided me insight for what Philly, NYC, DC, Boston, and other older city centers could look like with congestion pricing. The benefits to city residents, pedestrians, cyclists, and SEPTA could be amazing, but it would take a few decades for public opinion to shift to the point where congestion pricing would be supported.

I only believe in congestion pricing in Philadelphia if the money is specifically allotted by law towards transit expansion projects.

[PhillyPDX]

So we don't want an arena because it brings people, and cars downtown. It's better to be a dead zone in a city? Question is, is there a better and realistic idea that would be done with this space? Realistic as in: proposed, easy financing, done in the next 10 years. Not just a pipe dream.

I get the gripe, but it makes me think of this quote. "Nobody goes there anymore. It’s too crowded."

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by PhillyPDX

So we don't want an arena because it brings people, and cars downtown. It's better to be a dead zone in a city?

I agree with this: if Chinatown businesses are struggling now, wouldn't they want something that would bring more people to the area? even if it does mean making some changes and adjustments, that's part of city living.

Originally Posted by PhillyPDX

Question is, is there a better and realistic idea that would be done with this space? Realistic as in: proposed, easy financing, done in the next 10 years. Not just a pipe dream.

no, there isn't.

Originally Posted by PhillyPDX

I get the gripe, but it makes me think of this quote. "Nobody goes there anymore. It’s too crowded."

A Yogi Berra classic.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by PhillyPDX

So we don't want an arena because it brings people, and cars downtown. It's better to be a dead zone in a city? Question is, is there a better and realistic idea that would be done with this space? Realistic as in: proposed, easy financing, done in the next 10 years. Not just a pipe dream.

I get the gripe, but it makes me think of this quote. "Nobody goes there anymore. It’s too crowded."

1. No 2. No 3. LOVE this quote and it's exactly right.

Most Philadelphians opposed to this 1. Point to DC's "Chinatown" as an example of a neighborhood that was killed by a local arena (answer: it wasn't, DC's Chinatown was already dead when they built their arena there) and 2. Treat the Chinese Community in Philadelphia as a niche subgroup that needs to be handled with gloves, as if we have 200 Chinese people in the city. The reality is Chinese people in Philadelphia are our largest Asian subgroup, there's an active pipeline of Chinese immigrants coming here literally every day, a number of neighborhoods now have very large Chinese populations verging on taking over the majority in many census tracts. I would argue Chinese people don't even consider Chinatown the center of their local community anymore. That being said, obviously I think our Chinatown is a gem and a true functioning Chinatown that no longer exists in most cities, but I also think the existential impacts that are being thrown around are greatly exagerated. If anything, it should strenghten businesses in the neighborhood and if landlords decide to sell and the neighborhood becomes less Chinese, well then, you have only the Chinese to blame because they own most of the properties in the neighborhood.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I'm a season ticket holder in West Philly and while I do the transfer from the trolley to BSL sometimes, more often than not, I drive to South Philly and take the BSL from Point Breeze to avoid the longer commute, parking costs and congestion of the Wells Fargo Center. I can guarantee you that I am by no means alone. At the new location, I'd be taking the trolley direct every game and, if you add in the MFL, 99% of other people coming from West Philly would take public transit. With no transfer, this should also be true for Fishtown/No Libs and anyone else near the El.

Beyond those near transit lines, people from farther away will also use a similar strategy to what I typically do in South Philly - park near a transit line to avoid parking near the stadium, but instead of being limited to just the BSL, they can park near a MFL or trolley line. It will certainly defuse a lot of traffic.

As for the regional rails, I'm more skeptical unless they can expand their hours, but it seems largely moot if the majority of attendees are from the city.

Yep exactly. I could see a lot of people from NJ parking at a Patco stop and coming that way. Main line people will probably still take regional rail but Delco will drive to 69th street station or even take Baltimore ave trolley to 13th? Northern suburbs can take regional rail or drive to Fern Rock and take BSL. There's just so many ways to get there. With the sports complex, it was driving or BSL.

Purple is 45 minute transit trips for WFC. Pink is 11th and Market.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

1. No 2. No 3. LOVE this quote and it's exactly right.

Most Philadelphians opposed to this 1. Point to DC's "Chinatown" as an example of a neighborhood that was killed by a local arena (answer: it wasn't, DC's Chinatown was already dead when they built their arena there) and 2. Treat the Chinese Community in Philadelphia as a niche subgroup that needs to be handled with gloves, as if we have 200 Chinese people in the city. The reality is Chinese people in Philadelphia are our largest Asian subgroup, there's an active pipeline of Chinese immigrants coming here literally every day, a number of neighborhoods now have very large Chinese populations verging on taking over the majority in many census tracts. I would argue Chinese people don't even consider Chinatown the center of their local community anymore. That being said, obviously I think our Chinatown is a gem and a true functioning Chinatown that no longer exists in most cities, but I also think the existential impacts that are being thrown around are greatly exagerated. If anything, it should strenghten businesses in the neighborhood and if landlords decide to sell and the neighborhood becomes less Chinese, well then, you have only the Chinese to blame because they own most of the properties in the neighborhood.

And DC has a building height restriction around 200 feet...Philly's real estate cost and demand will never be what DC has. There's just so much more wealth and jobs in DC.