Surrey Langley Skytrain - Expo Line Extension | Proposed

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I think it was also a mistake to have three contractors instead of one. Instead of 1/3rd the middleman bloat, now we have triple.

Plus three entities will have to coordinate work with one another.

[Diegotheartist1]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

the original price was an estimate before the real-world bid prices came in, right?

It's not surprising given the state of the world, other countries and cities with projects are dealing with the same kind of large price increases in a post-COVID world.

Yes, the economic effects of COVID-19 combined with certain conflicts on this planet (and some other stuff) have taken a heavy toll on the price of projects in terms of the cost of materials and I guess workers wage. I am shocked and disappointment that the cost has went from $4 Billion to $6 Billion.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

i think this just adds another nail in the coffin of the Burnaby/North Shore line.

with the cost of BSP, UBCx, and LangleyX, that project wont be pushed forward fast.

glad to see this is still going ahead. it is a good project and worth it, even though its quite expensive. maybe the Feds will throw us some money.

JK. i know thatll never happen.

[chowhou]

Interesting thought; I wonder how much of that $6 billion actually goes directly back to the government in the form of income taxes, payroll taxes, sales taxes, and business taxes?

Frankly, at $1000 per British Columbian at worst, it still seems worth it to me.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Worth noting that we're also blowing $6 billion on the TCH, and nobody's talking about cancelling that one. Purple, best guess, will have to be phased; $6 billion for Metrotown-Phibbs, and then $6 billion more for Phibbs-Park Royal, and of course the timetable for both just doubled.

It's definitely happening, though - it connects too many important things, and the North Shore/Burnaby vote is still critical for both major parties.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

one thing about the TCH is its one of the major goods movement routes in the country. while SkyTrain IS very important for our region and connectivity, it pails in comparison to the economic benefit the TCH provides. its not exactly apples - apples. we do have one of the busiest ports in all of north america; it needs to connect to the rest of the country.

but i do like we are continuing with this project and doing it in 1 phase, vs the BSP/UBCx in 2.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Sure, but SkyTrain’s just as important because it removes commuters from said economic benefit who’d otherwise choke it. If 600k+ riders decided to drive tomorrow, the TCH's trucks ain’t going nowhere; likewise, if there was a train that could get some of its 40-80k drivers off the road (alas, no train can do that yet), we might not need to widen the thing.

tl;dr - Let's get this one through to Chilliwack, but it'll likely be the last Lower Mainland widening ever. It's all bus lanes and REMs after that.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

one thing about the TCH is its one of the major goods movement routes in the country. while SkyTrain IS very important for our region and connectivity, it pails in comparison to the economic benefit the TCH provides. its not exactly apples - apples. we do have one of the busiest ports in all of north america; it needs to connect to the rest of the country.

Firstly, I might be wrong but I imagine the bulk majority of the port's goods leave on steel wheels, not rubber tires, but secondly, improving transit connections south of the Fraser is improving the TCH, implicitly. The more cars that can be taken off the TCH means the freer goods can flow.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I can see the Cons flipping a few seats, even a dozen. 19? In the metro? Not by being the Make BC Great Again party they're not.

As we've seen in the past, the NDP are more than willing to just spend to get something done. Meanwhile the Liberals just cancel stuff, and then cancel it again (*cough*massey-tunnel-bridge-*cough*), and basically screw things up badly enough when it comes to transportation they self-own'd themselves.

Until both skytrain lines are built, there's no way anyone in metro vancouver would consider voting to strangle the lower mainland's transit priorities.

The NDP may be awful, but at least they aren't building junk that nobody asked for.

[BaddieB]

Rustad says he will 'ensure the people of Surrey get the Skytrain they need' so the project will go through anyways regardless of the 2024 election.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by chowhou

https://338canada.com/bc/map.htm

Someone's forgetting about Delta, South Surrey, Langley, the entire Fraser Valley... even the new Vancouver-Yaletown electoral district is currently projected as a win for the BCC (If it existed in 2020, it would have been won by the Liberals)

I'm surprised so much of Surrey is still in orange there. I can see them flipping to Con pretty easily.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Worth noting that we're also blowing $6 billion on the TCH, and nobody's talking about cancelling that one. Purple, best guess, will have to be phased; $6 billion for Metrotown-Phibbs, and then $6 billion more for Phibbs-Park Royal, and of course the timetable for both just doubled.

It's definitely happening, though - it connects too many important things, and the North Shore/Burnaby vote is still critical for both major parties.

Have those costs exploded over the last few years?

Are we also planning several more $6B expansions to the #1 highway? No, of course not.

Stop comparing apples to oranges. I'm a huge fan of transit but these costs are eye-watering.

[djmk]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Worth noting that we're also blowing $6 billion on the TCH, and nobody's talking about cancelling that one. Purple, best guess, will have to be phased; $6 billion for Metrotown-Phibbs, and then $6 billion more for Phibbs-Park Royal, and of course the timetable for both just doubled.

I would imagine Metrotown to phibbs would be quite complicated to build.

There is a huge mall to get through, massive slopes leaving metrotown, train tracks in the middle, heavy urban areas around metrotown and brentwood, massive slopes leaving burnaby on the north end, a bridge over an inlet...

I think 6 billion would be a bargain

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by djmk

I would imagine Metrotown to phibbs would be quite complicated to build.

There is a huge mall to get through, massive slopes leaving metrotown, train tracks in the middle, heavy urban areas around metrotown and brentwood, massive slopes leaving burnaby on the north end, a bridge over an inlet...

I think 6 billion would be a bargain

There's a world where just like UBC-Coquitlam, we get even more than 2 phases. Phibbs to Brentwood, anyone? Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, linking Phibbs+R2 to the R5 and the Millennium Line.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Have those costs exploded over the last few years?

Are we also planning several more $6B expansions to the #1 highway? No, of course not.

Stop comparing apples to oranges. I'm a huge fan of transit but these costs are eye-watering.

As a matter of fact, they have: Phase 2 near Langley cost $345 million total for roughly half the length. That's a 4x increase in the cost/km. Want to guess how much the Chilliwack phase will be if this pattern keeps up?

Stop acting like I'm happy about it; I simply accept it as the apparent cost of getting nice things. You want eye-watering, try how the original cost was $3.12 billion ten years ago. Over in Toronto, the Ontario Line was supposed to be $11B, and now it's $28B, and it'll probably go even higher. Wish they'd send that kind of budget our way once in a while.
Whatever - as long as it gets built before a new mayor scraps it and we're back with the stupid streetcar again, I'll call it a win.

Originally Posted by djmk

I would imagine Metrotown to phibbs would be quite complicated to build.

There is a huge mall to get through, massive slopes leaving metrotown, train tracks in the middle, heavy urban areas around metrotown and brentwood, massive slopes leaving burnaby on the north end, a bridge over an inlet...

I think 6 billion would be a bargain

It's also half the distance of the Langley extension (I don't think many people realize that Surrey-Langley effectively doubles the Expo Line), and we know how much that one costs.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

It's also half the distance of the Langley extension (I don't think many people realize that Surrey-Langley effectively doubles the Expo Line), and we know how much that one costs.

Yes, but Surrey-Langley is primarly going through forests and farmland, along a generally free existing RoW (Fraser Highway).

Phibbs-Metrotown needs a bridge along with some non-trivial amount of tunnelling, which, rule of thumb, should be around double the cost of elevated rail.

Double the length does not always mean double the price.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

As a matter of fact, they have: Phase 2 near Langley cost $345 million total for roughly half the length. That's a 4x increase in the cost/km. Want to guess how much the Chilliwack phase will be if this pattern keeps up?

Stop acting like I'm happy about it; I simply accept it as the apparent cost of getting nice things. You want eye-watering, try how the original cost was $3.12 billion ten years ago. Over in Toronto, the Ontario Line was supposed to be $11B, and now it's $28B, and it'll probably go even higher. Wish they'd send that kind of budget our way once in a while.
Whatever - as long as it gets built before a new mayor scraps it and we're back with the stupid streetcar again, I'll call it a win.

It's also half the distance of the Langley extension (I don't think many people realize that Surrey-Langley effectively doubles the Expo Line), and we know how much that one costs.

Time to bring back the much cheaper commuter train system. Told you the skytrain system will be way more expensive over such a low-density area, especially when installing the overhead concrete guideway and tracks over such a long distance, serving hardly anyone.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

Time to bring back the much cheaper commuter train system. Told you the skytrain system will be way more expensive over such a low-density area, especially when installing the overhead concrete guideway and tracks.

Same price overall (as evidenced by the cost/km of the GO expansion), 1/20th the riders. And unlike the interurban, the Expo extension actually serves Whalley, plus Fleetwood; a grand total of nobody is thinking we should ditch it.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Double the length does not always mean double the price.

Which is why I said $6 billion and not $3 billion. Note that said farmland needs ground stabilization for much of the route, and that a large part of the cost is also rail and stations (both of which Purple requires less of).

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by Vin

Time to bring back the much cheaper commuter train system. Told you the skytrain system will be way more expensive over such a low-density area, especially when installing the overhead concrete guideway and tracks over such a long distance, serving hardly anyone.

This looks pretty promising:

https://fleetwoodplan.surrey.ca/1661...cuments/133069