Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I didn't mean it in a political sense, more in a cultural sense.

A good illustration of what I was saying to help understand: US media tonight are all about Léon Marchand winning a 4th gold medal. Performance is highly valued in the US, even if it's a foreign performance.

Then check the Québécois newspapers: you'd think they, in North America, should be the most interested in the incredible victories of a French athlete. Well you won't find Léon Marchand on their main pages (I've checked Le Devoir and Le Journal de Montréal, not a word about Léon Marchand's extraordinary feet, whereas it's top of the main page of NYTimes, Washington Post, and the Wall Street Journal (!) had a big article about him the other day).

See, I think there is perhaps less of a culture of performance in Québec, it's a more left-wing society.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

A good illustration of what I was saying to help understand: US media tonight are all about Léon Marchand winning a 4th gold medal. Performance is highly valued in the US, even if it's a foreign performance.

What performance? You appear to be fantasizing the US too much.

ESPN must still be the major US media network when it comes to sport... Even worldwide, ahead of BBC Sport.
I've been frequently watching the ESPN site out of curiosity and it's very very much about team GB.
Heck, it even makes up the headlines above team USA.
Laughable. Very US sports like the MLB (that no one cares about outside the US) have disappeared, been forgotten for the real international event.

Don't expect so much advertisement from them for our country.
I suspect that at thins point, any French additional victory is a pain in their butt, even when Léon's been trained in the US since the summer of 2021.
That's the way it is. And it is actually quite stimulating! Like a challenge.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

See, I think there is perhaps less of a culture of performance in Québec, it's a more left-wing society.

Or you're just misinterpreting Quebec culture, and don't understand the dominance of winter sports in la belle province. Quebec is a nordique Scandinavian-styled nation, and it isn't California in terms of interest in swimming. The bobos do not control the elite sports apparatus in Quebec. Acajack is absolutely right that it has nothing to do with Quebec's progressive left tendencies nor QS-PQ left-wing politics nor any aversion to performance culture.

Marchand is trending on LaPresse:
https://www.lapresse.ca/sports/jeux-...aille-d-or.php

[Acajack]

The Radio-Canada Québécois commentator actually let out a bit of a cheer for Marchand during the race today: « Allez Léon! ».

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I didn't mean it in a political sense, more in a cultural sense.

Anyway, another CRAAAAZY night here!! 4th gold medal for Léon Marchand. I think all of France has fallen in love with him now.

Top 5 is like... 3 Anglo-Saxon countries, and 2 non-Anglo-Saxon intruders, France and China.



But where is Canada?? The one big Anglo-Saxon country that really seems to be underperforming. (I know, Winter games, etc, but still!)

We're at #9, which is good for us. As usual, quite a few 4th, 5th, and 6th place finishes. USA seems to be off to a relatively slow start. Australia is a powerhouse, especially in the pool.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Don't expect so much advertisement from them for our country.
I suspect that at thins point, any French additional victory is a pain in their butt, even when Léon's been trained in the US since the summer of 2021.
That's the way it is. And it is actually quite stimulating! Like a challenge.

Main page of the New York Times tonight (their main page, not their sports page):



Main page of the Washington Post:



And of course this tweet which has made the rounds since yesterday:



I can only recommend watching the video, the reaction of Michael Phelps is pretty amazing (only Americans gesture like that, that's why we like them ): https://x.com/SebastienBGY/status/1818868811962999220

What I've seen on Québécois medias has been much more subdued. I think that's noticeable considering how in general the medias from Québec react much more to events from France or involving French people than US media.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

We're at #9, which is good for us. As usual, quite a few 4th, 5th, and 6th place finishes. USA seems to be off to a relatively slow start. Australia is a powerhouse, especially in the pool.

Yeah, but their medias rank nations by total medal numbers, so they're #1 anyway. Not that I complain since that makes us #2.

Australia is good at swimming but not at much else. They'll probably go down the ranking next week. The one nation that is pretty high at this stage is Great Britain. They normally shouldn't be this high since their strong points are more obscure sports like rowing and Olympic cycling, where they have invested a lot because they grant LOTS of medals, and these take place in the last week, so normally they rank low until the last week, then suddenly jump in the top 5. For them to be so high already, I wonder whether they're not going to finish #2 overall.

I'm still a bit pessimistic for France, since after this Sunday we shouldn't win many more medals, as we haven't invested in the sports that take place after Sunday, but most French media seem rather optimistic, so who knows...

Anyway, the past few days have been days of euphoria, and what you guys cannot exactly fathom is how suddenly all Parisian métro lines work with high frequency (in the peak of summer, normally notorious for low frequency, lines closed, etc), punctuality, lots of available seats. Plus the safest streets I've seen in ages due to the MASSIVE police presence everywhere, all African migrants, beggars, vagrants suddenly gone, the Tuileries arcades suddenly looking entirely clean and free of homeless people like they were 15 years ago. A transformed city!! The flame rising in sky every day at nightfall in the Tuileries Gardens is also spectacular. It's also nice to walk in a city with lots of beautiful young men and women, athletes, etc, in the streets.

The wild exuberance of French fans is also nice to see. Since yesterday I see lots of families in the streets who have come from all over France, wearing "France" jersey shirts, having the French flag painted on their cheeks, etc. I somehow expected much more foreign visitors than French visitors, but the French fans are actually much more numerous than I would have imagined. The ambiance around the sports venues (which are partly in the city center) is pretty wild. It makes me laugh because most Parisians have decamped, imagining this would be a horrible time, but it's actually the best days I've seen in Paris in a long time, and free of the usual crowd and pressure. Lots of Americans (much more than usual), and last night a young Canadian couple asked me (in French! although it seemed to me they were from Anglophone Canada) at 1am if the Métro station was still opened (I thought about you guys). Lots of Brazilians too, Latin Americans.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec is definitely part of Canada and in many ways defines Canada.

That said, I'd disagree that every province in Canada is a "nation" in the way that Quebec is generally seen as one and sees itself as one.

Calling Saskatchewan or Nova Scotia a "nation" may have happened once somewhere, but it seems like a fanciful "us too!" type of thing more than anything.

Though a case could definitely be made for Newfoundland being a nation within Canada as well.

Aside from that, you have other groups within Canada not necessarily associated with entire provinces that are legitimate nations in the sociological sense: Inuit, Métis, First Nations, Acadiens, etc.

Inuit Nunangat could be a nation in the traditional sense as well. Or at least Nunavut.

[New Brisavoine]

Another illustration of what I was saying the other day about the Left and performance culture:

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Sure, I agree and so does the media. All the coverage I have watched so far makes it a point to say which province and/or city they are from. Often they do mini features on an athlete, telling their personal story, which almost always includes where they grew up and their path to the Olympics.

The problem is too often (not necessarily on this forum) when Québec talks more about Québec athletes, it is called chauvinistic or closed to others. Having a specific set of francophone media focussed on Québec helps create a bigger focus on Québec athletes, but when another province or a First Nation focussed on itself the same way Québec does (even if with less means), the same accusations will not be made.

Canada is a multinational state, and there is no problem with each nations composing it to be proud of its own accomplishments and to promote them, whether they are recognized as such internationally or not. And provinces can be more than administrative geographical divisions, they can be national subdivisions inside Canada.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Another illustration of what I was saying the other day about the Left and performance culture.

I'd rather not think about those people because it pisses off.

There's also a problem with taking any risk in the local culture.
See the story (in French) of this 17-yo French girl who made a gold medal at uneven bars for... Algeria.

https://www.20minutes.fr/sport/jo_20...-decide-priver

In a nutshell, the girl suddenly grew 14 cm up when she was 13, which caused some issues to her knees.
She went through knee surgery, then the French gym federation never wanted to get her back to official contests.
Besides, her coach apparently didn't want to send her to INSEP, the official government body to train athletes for the Olympics, so they must have felt offended. That probably made the argument even worse.
So the girl and her coach eventually had to turn to her father's country, Algeria to get a chance.
And they were right to do so, because she's good at this.

• Video Link

The French gym federation had it coming for being so annoying. I hope they're sorry now.
France will not have any single medal at gym. Bravo!

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Another illustration of what I was saying the other day about the Left and performance culture

Funnily enough I know a former Olympian who is very leftist and always hates on the Olympics in this way. They speak from their own lived experience as a competitor so I try to be respectful while also loving the games in general myself.

As with anything though, there is no leftist monolith. Some feel this way but in the population overall I imagine it’s a small minority.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Or you're just misinterpreting Quebec culture, and don't understand the dominance of winter sports in la belle province. Quebec is a nordique Scandinavian-styled nation, and it isn't California in terms of interest in swimming. The bobos do not control the elite sports apparatus in Quebec. Acajack is absolutely right that it has nothing to do with Quebec's progressive left tendencies nor QS-PQ left-wing politics nor any aversion to performance culture.

Marchand is trending on LaPresse:
https://www.lapresse.ca/sports/jeux-...aille-d-or.php

I was also thinking over the weekend that Quebec is also very egalitarian, so perhaps this plays into it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

The problem is too often (not necessarily on this forum) when Québec talks more about Québec athletes, it is called chauvinistic or closed to others. Having a specific set of francophone media focussed on Québec helps create a bigger focus on Québec athletes, but when another province or a First Nation focussed on itself the same way Québec does (even if with less means), the same accusations will not be made.

Canada is a multinational state, and there is no problem with each nations composing it to be proud of its own accomplishments and to promote them, whether they are recognized as such internationally or not. And provinces can be more than administrative geographical divisions, they can be national subdivisions inside Canada.

Another thing is that I've been watching the coverage almost exclusively on the francophone networks, and basically every single interview of Canadian athletes who aren't from Quebec is in English. ROCer Olympians never used to be mostly bilingual before, but it seems to me there used to be more than this. Now there none it seems. Even those with French surnames don't speak French. I don't think I've even noticed a cursory "merci beaucoup" at the end of the interview, which anglophone pro athletes often do when they play for Montreal clubs.

Of course you can say that this is a reflection of Canada, and you would be right. It's still not surprising though that because of this people in Quebec tend to focus on the athletes from the province a bit more. (And BTW I'm not saying they don't give support to the others. Lots of talk about Summer McIntosh in Quebec for example.)

(I think that Canadian Winter Olympians may be more bilingual though. There is lots of training in BC and Alberta, but also lots of training and events in Quebec. Also they spend more time in Europe where French is more present. And since there are more Quebecers on the winter time there are probably more of them that have francophone boyfriends and girlfriends.

Factoid: the Canadian volleyball team is based at our city's sports centre about 3 km from my house here in Gatineau. Since the players hang out in the city and meet people, one of the members of the team (currently in Paris at the Olympics) once made a sustained effort to date one of my kids, but was turned down.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Another thing is that I've been watching the coverage almost exclusively on the francophone networks, and basically every single interview of Canadian athletes who aren't from Quebec is in English. ROCer Olympians never used to be mostly bilingual before, but it seems to me there used to be more than this. Now there none it seems. Even those with French surnames don't speak French. I don't think I've even noticed a cursory "merci beaucoup" at the end of the interview, which anglophone pro athletes often do when they play for Montreal clubs.

Of course you can say that this is a reflection of Canada, and you would be right. It's still not surprising though that because of this people in Quebec tend to focus on the athletes from the province a bit more. (And BTW I'm not saying they don't give support to the others. Lots of talk about Summer McIntosh in Quebec for example.)

(I think that Canadian Winter Olympians may be more bilingual though. There is lots of training in BC and Alberta, but also lots of training and events in Quebec. Also they spend more time in Europe where French is more present. And since there are more Quebecers on the winter time there are probably more of them that have francophone boyfriends and girlfriends.

Factoid: the Canadian volleyball team is based at our city's sports centre about 3 km from my house here in Gatineau. Since the players hang out in the city and meet people, one of the members of the team (currently in Paris at the Olympics) once made a sustained effort to date one of my kids, but was turned down.

I think the media in every province will emphasize coverage of local athletes, if there are any. As an aside, one of the unintended consequences of Quebec's French-only linguistic policies and culture, may be that as Quebec becomes more "French", the ROC will become more "English".

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Architype

the ROC will become more "English".

How is that even possible...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

I think the media in every province will emphasize coverage of local athletes, if there are any. As an aside, one of the unintended consequences of Quebec's French-only linguistic policies and culture, may be that as Quebec becomes more "French", the ROC will become more "English".

Quebec is not becoming "more French".

[harls]

Most hardcore separatists cheer Québec athletes competing under the Canadian flag, right?

At least the ones I know.

Once the olympics are over it's back to the fleur de lys though.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

Most hardcore separatists cheer Québec athletes competing under the Canadian flag, right?

At least the ones I know.

Once the olympics are over it's back to the fleur de lys though.

Yes and they also enthusiastically cheer for Canada's national teams that have Quebecers on them. Even if they often have some issues with the composition of the teams and the way they are run. (For example, banning the use of French in the locker room in the name of team "cohesion", as we've sometimes seen.)

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

So what percentage of Québécois in general in the total Canadian summer medal count? No one has answered yet. I'm curious how they would fare if they were an independent nation.

If Summer McIntosh was a country, she would have more gold medals than Quebec or the ROC.

What a silly topic, even for our foreign agent provocateur.