The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[SpongeG]

Samsung’s EV battery breakthrough: 600-mile charge in 9 mins, 20 year lifespan

Given the current high production costs, the initial adoption of these batteries will be confined to the “super premium” EV segment.

Updated: Aug 01, 2024
Aman Tripathi

Samsung recently made a splash in the industry by showcasing its recent advancements in battery technology, especially related to solid-state batteries.

At the SNE Battery Day 2024 expo in Seoul, South Korea, the company revealed that its pilot solid-state battery production line is now fully operational.

“We built a pilot line last year to mass-produce all-solid-state batteries by 2027,” said Samsung SDI, as reported by The Elec.

Moreover, the battery’s initial batches have already been delivered to EV manufacturers for testing.

“We supplied samples to customers from the end of last year to the beginning of this year and are receiving positive feedback,” Samsung SDI stated.

Notably, these batteries could power electric vehicles with a 600-mile range, charge in 9 minutes, and have a lifespan of 20 years.

Promising features and initial focus
These solid-state batteries are expected to be smaller, lighter, and safer than the lithium-ion batteries currently used in most electric vehicles. They hold significant potential to revolutionize the EV industry.

“All-solid-state batteries can enhance safety by replacing liquid components with solid ones. When used in the same pack size as existing products, they reduce weight and take up less space,” highlighted the company.

However, due to their high production costs, these batteries’ initial application will be limited to the “super premium” EV segment.

...

https://interestingengineering.com/e...=article_image

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Oh this is a different issue. But a revised CUSMA can absolutely include provincial measures should for example the US insist on it. This would be the only reason for Canada to act as for us access to the US market is all that really matters at the end of the day.

If and when there's a revised USMCA we can talk about it then. But right now, it's not relevant to discussion about exports between the countries. And I am not entirely sure the US would ever want to give up the right to have state subsidies. They have massive state advantages. Like the write-offs tech gets in California. Or the huge tax breaks that Boeing gets in Washington State. A Canadian province subsidising consumer EVs is ridiculously small potatoes in comparison.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Mexico is actually a bit different under CUSMA as factories with low wages (under $20/hr) get less preferential treatment so Mexico is constricted from growing soley on wages at least.

The great thing about EVs is that they are a lot simpler to assemble. So these plants in Mexico can afford to pay $20/hr and still be substantially competitive. The high cost of EVs has always been mostly about battery costs. Get that down and everything becomes easier.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

You might be rate but this is 10 years away and nobdoy cares about beyond thier term. If you're right at least our government is making some efforts to make sure we are part of the new supply chain though I am not sure it's take the best approach. I'd prefer we focus on being competitive but I know industiral policy doesn't work like a Milton Friedman texbook espeically given other actors actions.

We're actually behind on the battery plants. The biggest argument for building them was so that we extract more value in the long run from the battery supply chain. Having cheap and clean electricity (by global standards) and so many of the resources to make batteries, it would have been ridiculous for us to pass up battery manufacturing just to rigidly follow ideology that none of the competition cares about. One of the few good things to come from this government. Cause I doubt the CPC would even be able to understand this industry. I doubt they have the bandwidth to understand anything beyond resource extraction.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

Samsung’s EV battery breakthrough: 600-mile charge in 9 mins, 20 year lifespan

Given the current high production costs, the initial adoption of these batteries will be confined to the “super premium” EV segment.

That is actually a problem for legacy automakers. High end are both halo products and highly profitable. If some small upstart operationalizes new battery tech they can steal those sales. Or Samsung gets to play kingmaker and decide who gets their best batteries.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And now we have evidence....



https://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-...140139676.html


The R3 is going to crunch Tesla sales. In no small part thanks to Elon losing his mind.

Looks like go (conservative) woke, go broke.

[theman23]

So apparently BMW sells a BEV 3-series exclusively in China, which I found surprising. What's more interesting is that stiff local competition forced them to drop the price nearly 50% over the course of two years, down to just 36,000 CAD out the door. That's about the price of a moderately specced Corrola.

• Video Link

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by theman23

So apparently BMW sells a BEV 3-series exclusively in China, which I found surprising. What's more interesting is that stiff local competition forced them to drop the price nearly 50% over the course of two years, down to just 36,000 CAD out the door. That's about the price of a moderately specced Corrola.

• Video Link

Remember that the China market is different than most western markets. You can buy a spacious apartment in most of china's major cities for less than $100,000.

It's ultimately a developing economy still with pricing below that of most western nations.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Remember that the China market is different than most western markets. You can buy a spacious apartment in most of china's major cities for less than $100,000.

It's ultimately a developing economy still with pricing below that of most western nations.

Sure. But this is exactly the type of competition that some of us have been talking about. There's this prevailing (based on ignorance) idea among Canadians and Americans that Chinese EVs aren't competitive and they'll be crushed by Western competition. Yet, everytime they go head to head, legacy automakers either outright lose and withdraw from the market, or end up getting their margins crushed (like in the BMW example above). And the more markets the Chinese sell in, the more they globalize this trend and crush legacy profits and margins.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Remember that the China market is different than most western markets. You can buy a spacious apartment in most of china's major cities for less than $100,000.

It's ultimately a developing economy still with pricing below that of most western nations.

This isn't true. The car was introduced at a $72,000 price point which is about the same as a BMW 3 series or i4. It probably would have stayed that way if it wasn't for the stiff local competition.

Car arbitrage isn't really a thing. Places that have high prices tend to be ones with lots of taxes and duties tacked onto vehicles, but the manufacturers otherwise tend to set prices about the same worldwide. They just don't sell the expensive cars in the developing world. You can't walk into a car dealership in Malaysia or Columbia with western money and expect to get a great deal because local incomes are low. In fact, the USA and Canada tend to have lower prices than most of the developing world despite our purchasing power being significantly higher. What's happening in China right now is unique.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by theman23

This isn't true. The car was introduced at a $72,000 price point which is about the same as a BMW 3 series or i4. It probably would have stayed that way if it wasn't for the stiff local competition.

How much of that "competition" is effectively Chinese firms overproducing? That's at the behest of their government trying to fill holes in their economy left by the real estate collapse in China.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by whatnext

How much of that "competition" is effectively Chinese firms overproducing? That's at the behest of their government trying to fill holes in their economy left by the real estate collapse in China.

This would imply a lot (most?) EV inventory in China being sold at a loss. I haven't seen any actual evidence of that. Open to anything you've found.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This would imply a lot (most?) EV inventory in China being sold at a loss. I haven't seen any actual evidence of that. Open to anything you've found.

Canada takes step toward boosting tariff regime on Chinese EVs by announcing consultation
Freeland says China's deliberate oversupply of electric vehicles 'undermines EV producers around the world'
Peter Zimonjic · CBC News · Posted: Jun 24, 2024
The federal government took a step Monday toward making Chinese electric vehicle imports more expensive in Canada by announcing a 30-day consultation period to examine Beijing's trade practices in the EV sector.

Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland made the announcement in Vaughan, Ont. She said that the consultations, which begin July 2, will help the government craft its response to Beijing.

"Canadian auto workers, and the auto sector … are facing unfair competition from China's intentional, state-directed policy of overcapacity that is undermining Canada's EV sector's ability to compete in domestic and global markets," Freeland said.

Freeland said China's oversupply of electric vehicles cannot be absorbed by the Chinese market and is being shipped abroad, where it "undermines EV producers around the world."...
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fre...iffs-1.7244361

Brazil is buying lots of Chinese EVs. Will that continue?
By William Tobin

In anticipation of growing demand for zero-emission transportation, China has become the world’s largest exporter of electric vehicles (EVs). China’s battery electric vehicle (BEV) industry is at overcapacity, producing an excess of 5 to 10 million vehicles annually beyond domestic demand, forcing China to find new markets to fuel continued growth...
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blog...that-continue/



This didn't get much attention last year but it shows how they encourage overproduction. Shocking waste.

China’s Abandoned, Obsolete Electric Cars Are Piling Up in Cities
A subsidy-fueled boom helped build China into an electric-car giant but left weed-infested lots across the nation brimming with unwanted battery-powered vehicles.
By Bloomberg News
August 17, 2023 at 7:00 PM PDT

On the outskirts of the Chinese city of Hangzhou, a small dilapidated temple overlooks a graveyard of sorts: a series of fields where hundreds upon hundreds of electric cars have been abandoned among weeds and garbage.

Visual media produced in partnership with Outrider Foundation.
Similar pools of unwanted battery-powered vehicles have sprouted up in at least half a dozen cities across China, though a few have been cleaned up. In Hangzhou, some cars have been left for so long that plants are sprouting from their trunks. Others were discarded in such a hurry that fluffy toys still sit on their dashboards.

The scenes recall the aftermath of the nation’s bike-sharing crash in 2018, when tens of millions of bicycles ended up in rivers, ditches and disused parking lots after the rise and fall of startups backed by big tech such as Ofo and Mobike.

This time, the cars were likely deserted after the ride-hailing companies that owned them failed, or because they were about to become obsolete as automakers rolled out EV after EV with better features and longer driving ranges. They’re a striking representation of the excess and waste that can happen when capital floods into a burgeoning industry, and perhaps also an odd monument to the seismic progress in electric transportation over the last few years....
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2...?sref=x4rjnz06

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Brazil is buying lots of Chinese EVs. Will that continue?
By William Tobin

In anticipation of growing demand for zero-emission transportation, China has become the world’s largest exporter of electric vehicles (EVs). China’s battery electric vehicle (BEV) industry is at overcapacity, producing an excess of 5 to 10 million vehicles annually beyond domestic demand, forcing China to find new markets to fuel continued growth...
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blog...that-continue/

That seems to be a slightly odd take on Chinese export of EVs. (The data in the piece is out of date, and shows how fast EV adoption is in China. It quotes 2023 data, when 25% of vehicle sales were EVs. Last month's domestic sales were over 50%.)

Japan produced nine million vehicles last year, and over 50% were exported, rather than for domestic sales. Does that mean their vehicle industry is at overcapacity, producing an excess of nearly 5 million vehicles annually beyond domestic demand that they are forced to export?

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Changing City

That seems to be a slightly odd take on Chinese export of EVs. (The data in the piece is out of date, and shows how fast EV adoption is in China. It quotes 2023 data, when 25% of vehicle sales were EVs. Last month's domestic sales were over 50%.)

Japan produced nine million vehicles last year, and over 50% were exported, rather than for domestic sales. Does that mean their vehicle industry is at overcapacity, producing an excess of nearly 5 million vehicles annually beyond domestic demand that they are forced to export?

Not my take, ask Chrystia

Though I’m not sure why you’re surprised. It’s the same economic tack they took with building condos and now they’re left with millions of unsold inventory. That’s what happens in a dictatorial command economy.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Not my take, ask Chrystia

Though I’m not sure why you’re surprised. It’s the same economic tack they took with building condos and now they’re left with millions of unsold inventory. That’s what happens in a dictatorial command economy.

I didn't reference the Canadian policy, I was pointing at the Tobin piece that you chose to quote.

I thought that China's property market woes are a direct result of the government failing to ensure developers were following development finance rules. It's Chinese capitalism that created the mess, not any dictatorial commands. Those have only been issued more recently, to try to solve the crisis.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Changing City

I didn't reference the Canadian policy, I was pointing at the Tobin piece that you chose to quote.

I thought that China's property market woes are a direct result of the government failing to ensure developers were following development finance rules. It's Chinese capitalism that created the mess, not any dictatorial commands. Those have only been issued more recently, to try to solve the crisis.

Psst, I have some Evergrande shares to sell you.

A Bubble Caused by Beijing’s Failures
There are no economic bubbles in the world that do not eventually collapse. While some similarities exist between the difficulties China is currently experiencing and Japan’s situation following the bursting of its asset bubble in the early 1990s, they are exceeded by the number of substantial differences. The primary cause of Japan’s bubble economy was market failure, while China’s real estate bubble is the consequence of government failure.

During the last 20 years, the Chinese government has positioned real estate investments as the engine of economic growth. In particular, under the Hu Jintao administration (2003–12), former premier Wen Jiabao decided to use the sale of land usage rights (fixed-term leases) by local governments as a way of funding their budgets. This resulted in local governments raising the price of land usage rights, which property developers accommodated by raising land prices as well. Developers that did not accommodate the demands of local governments found it difficult to win bids for government contracts. This is the history that led to a bubble in China’s real estate market....(bold mine)

https://www.nippon.com/en/in-depth/d00942/

[Truenorth00]

^ I don't see those as evidence that most of their inventory is being at sold at a loss. You have any idea how big the Chinese auto and EV industry is? The stuff you're pointing out are rounding errors.

[Nouvellecosse]

Interesting how Transport Evolved, one of the largest and most reputable EV channels, came out as officially supporting BYD imports to the US. Mainly because they believe legacy automakers have been unwilling and/or unable to offer low cost EV options that focus on affordability. They argue that the US's protectionist rhetoric is more about protecting corporate profits than on consumer benefits or fighting climate change while lamenting the plethora of SUV and cross-over options and lack of smaller more affordable vehicles.

• Video Link

[Truenorth00]

It's a problem to be sure. We impose trade barriers to protect jobs. But then instead of investing and innovating, these companies try to work the refs to keep the status quo. Meanwhile those Chinese autos are basically taking over the rest of the world.

Obama tried to drag them into the EV era with the auto bailouts. They took the money and then spent incredible sums lobbying and campaigning against higher fuel economy standards. And then got Trump to reverse a whole bunch of those standards. They could have spent that money building the equivalent of Tesla. They didn't. Valid to ask how much worse they'll be in a decade if protected again.

I don't think we have a choice (because of jobs). But protection needs to be paired with EV mandates to force R&D.

[Innsertnamehere]

I mean Tesla is still the largest full EV manufacturer globally. It’s not like American companies are completely sidelined.

American car manufacturers have always struggled with the developing market anyway.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I mean Tesla is still the largest full EV manufacturer globally. It’s not like American companies are completely sidelined.

American car manufacturers have always struggled with the developing market anyway.

The US basically has one company. The Chinese gave an entire industry. That's the difference.