Houston's Downtown Is, Like, Nothing But A Sea Of Parking Lots...

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

St. Louis and San B aren't in the top 20 but yes i missed Dallas. But regardless, larger metros tend to have stronger, denser downtowns. So while you may be ignoring metro area size, I'm not because metro size is relevant. We can see that in how size correlates with the list. Beating much smaller metro areas is easy. How a city compares to it's peers of a similar size and prominence is much more relevant for me. That's probably why Houston has the reputation it does since it's such a large and prominent city/metro and people compare it to others of that caliber.

Wikipedia is telling me Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario is number 13. St Louis is losing population... it may have been in the top 20 in 2020 when the list I looked at earlier was made.

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by vetteking

Houston downtown is more developed than my city (Jackson, MS) so I don't agree with your comment. It has parking lots but not as much as some cities with less development.

Whose comment?

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'm highly skeptical of the methodology. San Juan has a great, intact core. Worcester? New Haven? Intact.

I don't know. Here's their map:



And a Google Earth aerial:

[edale]

Since Houston has evidently made strides in rebuilding its downtown from the sea of parking lots it previously was, maybe it can shift attention to building some walkable business districts in the rest of the city. Houston is the only city in the US that I've not been able to find a single traditionally urban neighborhood business district. Glad to hear downtown has improved, but the city as a whole still is pretty much horrible from an urban perspective.

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by edale

Houston is the only city in the US that I've not been able to find a single traditionally urban neighborhood business district.

Oh, I know. I can think of two that I saw with my own eyes that no longer exist. Both in predominantly Black neighborhoods (Lyons Ave. in the 5th Ward and West Dallas Street in the 4th Ward). Some people like to think 19th Street in the Heights qualifies but I don't buy it. Street is too wide and too much of it has been destroyed. There are some of those types of streets being built in the suburbs.

There are a few almost-but-not-really blocks in the city, like this one:
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7385...5410&entry=ttu

Or the occasional corner that's trying... but one corner does not a walkable district make:

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7509...5410&entry=ttu


It is very, Very, VERY frustrating and I am constantly pissed off by the cluelessness.

I saw this street view of Austin's East 5th recently and got both royally pissed and then depressed. I suppose, though, it does prove that streets like this (it's almost entirely new) are possible:

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.2638...5410&entry=ttu

HINT TO HOUSTON: Take note of the sidewalks and setbacks!


ETA: Let me clarify... I saw what little remained of the Lyons Ave and West Dallas districts. I'm not so old that I remember them when they were intact.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by The North One

Houston's issue isn't just parking. The downtown is basically just a glorified office park.

Detroit's largest parking lot is currently a construction site for the UMich campus so they're at least slowly being eaten away.

No. It's still largely sterile and devoid of a lot of street level retail that would normally attract people outside of work hours but you're about two decades off for the office park analogy. Houston is behind most cities its size and even those half its size but it's improved drastically since I've lived here.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by JManc

No. It's still largely sterile and devoid of a lot of street level retail that would normally attract people outside of work hours but you're about two decades off for the office park analogy. Houston is behind most cities its size and even those half its size but it's improved drastically since I've lived here.

That's essentially what I mean. It's just offices on a grid. Retail is mostly either non-existent or vacant. Most buildings are very pedestrian hostile, dead space everywhere. It was obviously built just to go to work and go home, like an office park. It's not much of a place.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by The North One

That's essentially what I mean. It's just offices on a grid. Retail is mostly either non-existent or vacant. Most buildings are very pedestrian hostile, dead space everywhere. It was obviously built just to go to work and go home, like an office park. It's not much of a place.

But there are things to do just not enough worthy of a metro of 7 million. You should have seen it as late as the 90's, it was post apocalyptic in a Planet of the Apes kinda way. At least now, there are several isolated pockets with pre-war buildings or residential areas with parks, ground level retail, bars, restaurants and so on that are worth a trip in every so often. The main corridor with mostly 70's and 90's era office buildings will always sterile but you'll find that in other, more walkable cities as well.

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by JManc

No. It's still largely sterile and devoid of a lot of street level retail that would normally attract people outside of work hours...

Or attract people who aren't working during work hours.

And it's depressing (or angering) to realize it wasn't always like it is now.


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[Mad_Nick]

Originally Posted by Doady

A lot of streets seem to lack on-street parking. Lack of on-street parking not only means more need for off-street parking, but it also means no traffic calming and no buffer between car traffic and pedestrians.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/wUXFFe9P9B6LdQkP9
https://maps.app.goo.gl/SyRTC8e7v1BwnDQP9

Lack of on-street parking is very much a suburban thing. Office parks have parking off the street. Real downtowns have parking on the street.

In Canada, the city of Hamilton is notable for not having parallel parking on its two main east-west corridors, Main and King Streets, and they are very pedestrian unfriendly as a result. Parking on the street is important for a healthy and vibrant downtown.

I mean in those cases certainly, but saying on-street parking is a requirement for a "real downtown" is still a very auto-centric viewpoint. I can easily imagine those streets being re-engineered with wider sidewalks, a refuge with trees in the middle of the road, protected bike lanes, and only one (European width) car lane in each direction, and they will immediately be much more pleasant and safe without the need for any on-street parking.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by bilbao58

Wikipedia is telling me Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario is number 13. St Louis is losing population... it may have been in the top 20 in 2020 when the list I looked at earlier was made.

Yes you're right. It's easy to forget how big the inland empire is or to think of it as part of greater LA but it technically is considered a separate large metro.

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by Mad_Nick

I mean in those cases certainly, but saying on-street parking is a requirement for a "real downtown" is still a very auto-centric viewpoint.

Except not in those cases either. Had Doady looked more closely, he would have seen that there is indeed metered parking on both of those streets... just no one parked at that time.

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7488...5410&entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7480...5410&entry=ttu

[craigs]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Yes you're right. It's easy to forget how big the inland empire is or to think of it as part of greater LA but it technically is considered a separate large metro.

And the reason is it easy to forget that the Inland Empire is a separate metro is because it really isn't. I mean, the government has officially split it off based on commuting patterns, but the IE doesn't have skyscrapers or a populous central city because it is merely the eastern end of the metropolis which also includes Los Angeles and Orange counties.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by bilbao58

Except not in those cases either. Had Doady looked more closely, he would have seen that there is indeed metered parking on both of those streets... just no one parked at that time.

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7488...5410&entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7480...5410&entry=ttu

These are flex lanes, not dedicated parking.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Mad_Nick

I mean in those cases certainly, but saying on-street parking is a requirement for a "real downtown" is still a very auto-centric viewpoint. I can easily imagine those streets being re-engineered with wider sidewalks, a refuge with trees in the middle of the road, protected bike lanes, and only one (European width) car lane in each direction, and they will immediately be much more pleasant and safe without the need for any on-street parking.

Right, Michigan Ave in Chicago doesn't have street parking for much of it and it's pretty vibrant. (Yes, it has too many traffic lanes and not enough bus/bike lanes, but at least the sidewalks are pretty wide).

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

These are flex lanes, not dedicated parking.

No, that's just regular zoned metered parking with a central meter with rush hour restrictions like all (or just about) other on-street parking in Downtown. Available for parking all but two hours in the morning and two hours in the afternoon. Downtown Houston has always restricted on-street parking during the morning and afternoon rush hours. Back when there were individual meters and now with the zoned metering.

ETA: It's no different than this zoned metered parking by Jones Hall. There has always been metered parking here. This used to be my go to spot to find street parking. Interestingly, it's a lot easier to find street parking with these new meters. Anyway, there used to be individual meters and the spots were painted on the pavement. Now with zoned parking there is no need to mark off parking spaces.

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7604...5410&entry=ttu

[Bailey]

Many here might not like downtown Houston but I can ensure you it is one of the most drastic success stories in American 21st Century planning history.

Yes, it once had a vibrant pre- War residential, retail, office, transit core but America's love with the automobile suburban flight post war ideologies destroyed that.

Downtown Houston did throw up iconic skycrapers in the 70s and 80s but they were not well connected to the the street life in any way. They were guarded pedestal type of skyscrapers. Then, the oil bust of the mid 80s hit and that stopped the endless construction of these trophy towers.

Sadly, the Bank of the Southwest Tower was one of the casualties but Chicago and Philadelphia stole the award winning design and constructed versions for themselves:

https://life-after-people-fanon.fand...outhwest_Tower

Then downtown Houston plummeted into despair UNTIL the late 1990s when it woke itself up and started rebuilding itself in impressive fashion.

I credit the turnaround to 4 major elements.

1. Conversion of the Historic, but abandoned, Rice Hotel, into luxury Apartments. to say this was risky was an understatement but it was the late 1990s/early 200s catalyst for significantly increasing the residential component in downtown Houston. This was converted in 1998 and it sits on perhaps arguably the second most historic lot in all of Texas, behind the Alamo. This was the site of the FIRST Capitol building of the Republic of Texas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rice_(Houston)


This move led to dozens of renovated and residential conversions and the new "residential" only buildings kept getting taller and taller.

2. Location of Minute Maid Park. When it was decided that he Astrodome was outdated for the Astros, two sites were pitched 1) next door to the Astrodome and 2) downtown as part of a plan to revitalize downtown similar to how Denver, Baltimore, Cleveland had with their new urban ball parks. I was actually part of the group that campaigned for the downtown site and luckily they picked that location. Not only did they pick that location they designed a high quality park that fit in with the existing neighborhood and because they cared so much about the design/ street level interaction , it has become a landmark for Houstonians. The park opened in 2000

Now, NRG and the Toyota Center were more sterile and I see those having a shelf life but not MMP! In fact, the Owner of the Astros has bought a number of the blocks to build an en is currently designing an entertainment district a

3) Discovery Green and then Market Square. The City understood it needed large, and small, pocket parks in downtown and as part of the residential boom, these parks were quickly bordered with residential buildings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute_Maid_Park

4) Metro Red Line

Connected downtown Houston through midtown through the Museum District through Hermann Park through the Med Center to NRG Park

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by bilbao58

No, that's just regular zoned metered parking with a central meter with rush hour restrictions like all (or just about) other on-street parking in Downtown. Available for parking all but two hours in the morning and two hours in the afternoon. Downtown Houston has always restricted on-street parking during the morning and afternoon rush hours. Back when there were individual meters and now with the zoned metering.

ETA: It's no different than this zoned metered parking by Jones Hall. There has always been metered parking here. This used to be my go to spot to find street parking. Interestingly, it's a lot easier to find street parking with these new meters. Anyway, there used to be individual meters and the spots were painted on the pavement. Now with zoned parking there is no need to mark off parking spaces.

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7604...5410&entry=ttu

Ergo… they’re flex lanes. Doesn’t matter if the parking/travel ratio is 80/20 or 20/80, the fact that a ratio exists at all makes it a flex lane.

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Ergo… they’re flex lanes. Doesn’t matter if the parking/travel ratio is 80/20 or 20/80, the fact that a ratio exists at all makes it a flex lane.

OK, so does that mean alternate side snow parking on some northern city streets is really just flex lanes?

ETA: I'd be interested in seeing any reference you might find to flex lanes on downtown Houston streets. I've never heard them called that.

ETA again: But I do see reference to "flex lanes" in Austin.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by bilbao58

OK, so does that mean alternate side snow parking on some northern city streets is really just flex lanes?

No those are parking lanes where use of any kind is prohibited so the city has the ability to do regularly scheduled maintenance… they don’t shift from one use to another, they shift whether or not an individual can take advantage of the use or not. There’s a logical difference between those two things.