How sketchy and pervasive is your city's visible transient/drug addict situation?

[pdxtex]

One thing I know for certain, if fentanyl wasn't in the picture it would be a completely different situation. Its like a science fiction movie, street drug turns ppl into zombies. When they cut it with tranquilizers then its lights out. Ive seen ppl roaming around straight out of 28 days later. Its probably worse on the west coast because of all the ports and Mexico due south of us. Ive heard rumors of cartel members operating on the Oregon coast too operating drug drops off of container ships and picking them up in Zodiacs like Miami in the 80s.

[mhays]

The cost would depends where you draw the line. Committing thousands seems prohibitive. Committing a few hundred not so much. A relative few cause a large percentage of the havoc.

For a vague idea on cost for secured commitment, Washington State is starting construction on a 450,000 sf, 350-bed forensic psychiatric hospital (criminal suspects waiting to be deemed mentally fit to stand trial or go into long-term commitment). The overall development cost will be $911m. The operational costs will be high as well.

But what's $911m for various commitment programs, or even a few multiples of that, if it gets us noticeably back to a functional society?

Further, there are less amenity-rich versions for facilities. Non-commitment versions can work....I don't know the specifics, but maybe a large field, bathrooms, 1,000 tent sites, a clinic, and 20 supporting staff members.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

. Its like a science fiction movie, street drug turns ppl into zombies. When they cut it with tranquilizers then its lights out. Ive seen ppl roaming around straight out of 28 days later.

Yeah, that tranq walk shit is spooky similar to something out of a zombie apocalypse movie.

In the old days, the whinos and junkies would just pass out in a gutter or an unused doorway or something. Certainly unpleasant, but at least motionless for the most part.

These current drug zombies endlessly stumbling about in their zonked-out trances are a whole other level of unsettling.

Let's hope they don't develop a taste for brains, cuz then we'd really be boned.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mhays

The cost would depends where you draw the line. Committing thousands seems prohibitive. Committing a few hundred not so much. A relative few cause a large percentage of the havoc.

For a vague idea on cost for secured commitment, Washington State is starting construction on a 450,000 sf, 350-bed forensic psychiatric hospital (criminal suspects waiting to be deemed mentally fit to stand trial or go into long-term commitment). The overall development cost will be $911m. The operational costs will be high as well.

But what's $911m for various commitment programs, or even a few multiples of that, if it gets us noticeably back to a functional society?

Further, there are less amenity-rich versions for facilities. Non-commitment versions can work....I don't know the specifics, but maybe a large field, bathrooms, 1,000 tent sites, a clinic, and 20 supporting staff members.

I can't make up my mind as to whether we will do something like you suggest or simply shrug our shoulders and accept this as the new normal. Human beings have a surprising ability to adapt to almost anything and come to view it as normalcy.

The latter option is made more likely by the fact the wealth and technology will allow the most powerful among us to largely isolate themselves from the mayhem (while not shelling out for actual solutions), and of course no one cares much if the lower classes are dangerously exposed to it. Lots of countries "function" (if you can call it that) that way already.

[mhays]

We "get used to it" by avoiding certain parts of town, often core districts.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mhays

We "get used to it" by avoiding certain parts of town, often core districts.

The more attractive parts of town usually, in terms of architecture, urbanity and culture.

It's not a loss-free avoidance, I agree.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I can't make up my mind as to whether we will do something like you suggest or simply shrug our shoulders and accept this as the new normal. Human beings have a surprising ability to adapt to almost anything and come to view it as normalcy.

The latter option is made more likely by the fact the wealth and technology will allow the most powerful among us to largely isolate themselves from the mayhem (while not shelling out for actual solutions), and of course no one cares much if the lower classes are dangerously exposed to it. Lots of countries "function" (if you can call it that) that way already.

Right now, we are just shrugging for the most part.

I walked by three people in the park on the way to work this morning. They were shooting up on a bench. Two square block formal Victorian park with the Cenotaph memorial in the centre. It's supposed to be a nice safe place. The public library is on one corner, our tallest buildings and walking pedestrian mall are on another.

People avoid the core here like the plague now and no one really wants to return to work in the office because the core is an absolute dive now. My wife doesn't like going to the central library with the kids anymore.

I walk by at least three or four people sleeping on church steps or on benches in the park every day in the summer.

A lot of me appreciates winter when the visible issues disappear because they'd be dead outside for more than twenty minutes.

[Steely Dan]

Politics go in the toilet.

If you can't talk about this issue without mentioning major political parties, them you are on the wrong forum.

[hipster duck]

This is a bigger problem than "affordable housing" or "social safety nets". This is not even limited to North America. Frankfurt looks like it has a neighbourhood that's as bad as the worst of them here:

• Video Link

[giallo]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

One thing I know for certain, if fentanyl wasn't in the picture it would be a completely different situation. Its like a science fiction movie, street drug turns ppl into zombies. When they cut it with tranquilizers then its lights out. Ive seen ppl roaming around straight out of 28 days later. Its probably worse on the west coast because of all the ports and Mexico due south of us. Ive heard rumors of cartel members operating on the Oregon coast too operating drug drops off of container ships and picking them up in Zodiacs like Miami in the 80s.

The invasion of fentanyl into North America has been fascinating to watch; horrible, but undeniably fascinating.

I've never seen a drug completely suck the life out of its host in record time like fentanyl. The visuals of fent/xylazine are just insane. It's unlike anything I saw in the 80s/90s/early 2000s.

[Acajack]

Back in the 80s I can safely assume that the goal was to improve the lives of these people, and that integrating them more into wider society was thought to be the way to do it.

40 years later it's clearly made their lives much worse, as they've never been more vulnerable to pimps, pushers and a frightening range of predators and dangers.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Politics go in the toilet.

If you can't talk about this issue with mentioning major political parties, them you are on the wrong forum.

This is an inherently political topic. Period. Hence why half the comments are political. Yet my views are targeted and deleted? That’s censorship.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

This is an inherently political topic. Period. Hence why half the comments are political. Yet my views are targeted and deleted? That’s censorship.

I guess I need to repeat myself.

If you can't talk about this issue without mentioning major political parties/politicians, then you are on the wrong forum.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc

Well, I can tell you that heroin is pretty much impossible to get here in this area. It's all fentanyl. And increasingly, fentanyl is getting edged out by xylazine.

Generally speaking, around here if you see someone looking drawn and crusty it's meth. If they look like they're actively decaying it's xylazine.

I wouldn't know where to find drugs. But when it comes to boys and booze...

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

But when it comes to boys and booze...

Ahhh... to be young again!

[Omaharocks]

For the time being, the Fentanyl/Tranq camps are largely regional, in the U.S. at least (it's interesting hearing about Canada).

I go back and forth between 3 different cities, and they all are different regions and have very different realities when it comes to homelessness/sketch drugs:

Tucson - another city that didn't really have homeless camps until post 2021 (though always had a visible homeless presence downtown), now has fentanyl camps all over town, and it's visible anywhere there's a wash/river or city parks near the core. The city pushes them out of downtown proper, but I'd say it's a similar situation to what I've seen in Phoenix and Austin, i.e. bad, but not the worst.

Atlanta - has visible homeless camps along underpasses/freeway/exit ramps all around downtown, and in a couple neighborhoods near downtown, but it's not bad compared to many major cities. Notably Atlanta does a great job of keeping parks clear and clean pretty much everywhere except one park downtown.

Omaha - homeless? what homeless? Fentanyl? What's Fentanyl? Ok that's a slight exaggeration but not much, there are a couple spots where you can find a handful of homeless folks, but they don't appear to be on the blue pills.

It's just really an issue that is not spread evenly, whether due to culture, enforcement, climate, or what have you.

[hauntedheadnc]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

One thing I know for certain, if fentanyl wasn't in the picture it would be a completely different situation. Its like a science fiction movie, street drug turns ppl into zombies. When they cut it with tranquilizers then its lights out. Ive seen ppl roaming around straight out of 28 days later. Its probably worse on the west coast because of all the ports and Mexico due south of us. Ive heard rumors of cartel members operating on the Oregon coast too operating drug drops off of container ships and picking them up in Zodiacs like Miami in the 80s.

"Tranq" is worst in the east. Recreational use of xylazine started in Puerto Rico, then jumped to Philadelphia, which is still the epicenter now. It's been filtering its way into the rest of the country via Philadelphia.

I work in addiction medicine these days, for a company that owns multiple clinics. At one of our other clinics we took ten patients who regularly test positive for fentanyl and also tested them for xylazine. Six of the ten came back with it. At another we tested another ten, and three out of ten came back with it. Being smack in the middle between two major cities, on a major interstate, means that everything they're doing, we're doing too.

The thing about xylazine is that it isn't federally regulated yet. It's a large-animal tranquilizer with legitimate veterinary uses and as such, you can still buy it by the pound. It's not under control at all yet.

The most noteworthy thing about xylazine is the way that it causes necrosis. Unlike necrosis or cellulitis that can set up with IV opioid use, the necrosis from xylazine can set up pretty much anywhere. I've seen a video of a woman shooting up into the huge open sores where her scalp was rotting off. There's no consensus yet, but the working theory at the moment is that xylazine necrosis can set up anywhere there's a problem with circulation. Whereas, necrosis or cellulitis from other IV use usually sets up at the injection site.

But yeah... In this area heroin is pretty much a thing of the past. You've got pain meds, fentanyl and fentanyl laced with xylazine, or just straight xylazine. Those, and meth. We've got a few people who abuse benzos, but for the most part the vast majority of substance users here prefer opioid pain meds, fentanyl, and meth.

[urbancanadian]

As someone who lives in Downtown Vancouver, the situation feels super grim in certain places, especially after Covid hit. Like, on my way to the train station, I pass by one or two encampments every day. And far too much dog poop. But it's nothing like some posters (ssiguy, who has a well-known anti-Vancouver bias) say about the parks being overrun. I would say there are three or four parks in the city with a noticeable homeless population - but that's it. Even Nelson Park, right next to St. Paul's Hospital only has a few homeless people over any given night. It's more young people partying into the morning hours, after the clubs close, than it is vagrants. And during the day, the "normies" take over the park completely.

I can't think of one major park in the city that has been made uncomfortable from homeless/addicted people. Crab Park and Oppenheimer, yes, but those are pretty much full-on Downtown Eastside parks.

The problem is acute, and I hate it. I've even moved towards the right in terms of what I think needs to be done. But for god's sake. The city is still thriving. And the homeless population, while FAR too high, is not ruining the city for pretty much anyone. Basically, the regular population continues to far and away outnumber the problematic population. And we continue to enjoy the City's perks.

[muertecaza]

Originally Posted by AviationGuy

I'm surprised Phoenix hasn't been mentioned. There was a lot of national news about a huge tent city next to downtown Phoenix.

For better or worse, at least in my personal experience, Phoenix's big encampment was just far enough outside of downtown that a lot of people probably never see it. Especially for people coming from the east like me, I can come into downtown by car or rail without ever seeing it because the 'Zone' is west of downtown.

The encampment was cleared last December. And I believe they added a decent amount of shelter beds. There are some reports of it returning though. And the area with the encampment will probably always have a critical mass of homeless because it's where all the homeless services are.

A few years back a homeless encampment developed in the Salt River in Tempe where I use the multi-use path to commute. It was never too bothersome to me, other than occasionally avoiding shopping carts and the smell of weed. Those camps were cleared too though, and have not returned, at least not to the same degree.

So I would say Phoenix right now is more dispersed.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by urbancanadian

As someone who lives in Downtown Vancouver, the situation feels super grim in certain places, especially after Covid hit. Like, on my way to the train station, I pass by one or two encampments every day. And far too much dog poop. But it's nothing like some posters (ssiguy, who has a well-known anti-Vancouver bias) say about the parks being overrun. I would say there are three or four parks in the city with a noticeable homeless population - but that's it. Even Nelson Park, right next to St. Paul's Hospital only has a few homeless people over any given night. It's more young people partying into the morning hours, after the clubs close, than it is vagrants. And during the day, the "normies" take over the park completely.

I can't think of one major park in the city that has been made uncomfortable from homeless/addicted people. Crab Park and Oppenheimer, yes, but those are pretty much full-on Downtown Eastside parks.

The problem is acute, and I hate it. I've even moved towards the right in terms of what I think needs to be done. But for god's sake. The city is still thriving. And the homeless population, while FAR too high, is not ruining the city for pretty much anyone. Basically, the regular population continues to far and away outnumber the problematic population. And we continue to enjoy the City's perks.

Huh, you're right, I'm impressed at the latest Street View of the park that used to be right in front of my place while I lived in Van. Which looked like this and was totally unusable back then:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.27467...5409&entry=ttu