Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[Boz]

That map is a huge bitch!

And it's also huge bummer.

[Comrade]

I like the Utah State Capitol sitting atop its hill. I think it's a pretty unique dynamic.

But had they built it in the heart of downtown, with a civic park to match, something like Denver's Civic Park, Salt Lake would have been way cooler.

[zurich]

Originally Posted by Utah

Memory Grove is right there, and the trail follows City Creek and is tree covered so it is 10 to 15 degrees cooler. I don't know how far the trail goes but it is many miles.

Ensign Peak trail is another option.

If we could extend the Green Loop, starting from Astra, north up State street to the corner of 2nd and State, you could connect to Memory Grove and that whole area. IMO, that would do wonders for the city. Just imagine living in Astra knowing you were essentially in front of a park / bikeway up to the foothills. That would be a game changer for me. The green loop needs to have a couple spurs, rather than only circling the downtown.

[Comrade]

I know there's emphasis on downtown shifting west - but I would love to see more taller buildings on 400 South. I think that street is perfect for some taller buildings and yet ... nothing.

[RC14]

Originally Posted by Atlas

Give me a break. SLC mountain and wilderness access is second to none in the USA. Green loop or not.

Wilderness also tends to attract a lot of transplants who don't really want to live in apartments and condos, especially when the nightlife scene is nothing special. So that, coupled with car culture and Utah's idiosyncrasies, might be part of why there are fewer high rises.

Someone on Reddit also pointed out that you have to dig pretty far down to get to bedrock in SLC, and that concrete is relatively expensive compared to other places.

But I think we will see another boom soon. Lots of investment in downtown SLC on the horizon, which is encouraging.

I have made Zurich's same point in the past. Yes, we probably have the best access to the outdoors of a major US city but the primary way to enjoy that is by getting in your car and driving. There is nothing in Salt Lake City that is so desirable that you have to pay a premium to live in a small condo right above it. It's not Manhattan, it's not downtown Chicago, it's not Miami beach.

I love downtown SLC but Most people are perfectly happy paying less money to live in a suburb 20mins away. I think there needs to be a draw. There needs to be a significant quality of life advantage to living downtown vs some suburb and I don't think the value proposition is quite there yet.

Originally Posted by Orlando

One step at a time guys. As demand and density keep pushing for that, then the buildings will get taller. But, to jump to 250’ to 300’ from 80’ to 100’ as the most tall buildings in the area and within the last 10 years, is pretty unrealistic.

Btw, what would you all think about highrises at the gravel pit area on Wasatch Blvd near the mouth of Big Cottonwood Canyon? Very different context from Sugarhouse. There are some houses to the north up on the bench, but most of them would not have their view blocked from high rises 10 to 20+ story high rises if built on the lower elevation and 200’ back or more from Wasatch Blvd.

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I think living right at the base of the Cottonwoods, with easy access to some of the greatest skiing in the world, is a value proposition people would pay for. I think condo towers could do very well there.
It's unfortunate that downtown SLC wasn't built closer to the canyons.

[RC14]

Originally Posted by Comrade

I like the Utah State Capitol sitting atop its hill. I think it's a pretty unique dynamic.

But had they built it in the heart of downtown, with a civic park to match, something like Denver's Civic Park, Salt Lake would have been way cooler.

I don't know. I think Capital hill and Memory Grove are cooler then this.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by RC14

I don't know. I think Capital hill and Memory Grove are cooler then this.

Well Memory Grove is kinda independent of the capitol building.

And the grounds of the capitol are generally dead because it's so isolated from the rest of the city. No one utilizes the grounds beyond the random rally/protest.

But having the actual capitol downtown, maybe the Newhouse block (so no Newhouse - not that it matters since it's gone anyway) and the block with the current courthouse (which is built somewhere else) as a civic plaza or something might have been cool.

Don't mind my shoddy photoshop lmao:

[zurich]

It's unfortunate that downtown SLC wasn't built closer to the canyons.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! Imagine you're a visitor to Salt Lake at one of the accommodations downtown. For most active people, all I would want to do is get out and head up to Park City, Snowbird, etc - but you MUST drive a car. Yes, its faster than places like Denver, but why isn't there discussion about extending Trax to Park City or to the base of Little Cottonwood?

I was in Boise for one night and was able to easily take a 4 min walk to the Boise river and run for 7 miles and didn't have to stop since the trails went under the roads. To me, that would be a big reason to live downtown.

And, whoever builds a 5-7 story condo development at the base of Little Cottonwood, kind of like they have in Vail, Beaver Creek will become rich. No need for a 10+ story building there... just a tasteful, high density development like what you would see near ski resorts. Very surprised that hasn't happened yet.

[i-215]

Originally Posted by zurich

why isn't there discussion about extending Trax to Park City or to the base of Little Cottonwood?

1. Railroad vehicles have a maximum grade (steepness) they can climb in a cost-effective manner.

2. Rail-based transit is the most expensive type to build. Yes, the end result is unsurpassed. (But so is the price!)

3. Regional transit planning, for right or wrong, focuses on getting local residents to and from work and home. It's politically difficult to spend $1+ billion on a "TRAX for tourists" when there are always going to be more pressing needs for locals (e.g., double-tracking Frontrunner).

I do like the idea of running a very robust bus rapid transit (BRT) with dedicated lanes to those places.

[delts145]

Originally Posted by RC14

I don't know. I think Capital hill and Memory Grove are cooler then this.

I agree RC14. That other civic plaza is cool. There are many design elements of the overall Denver Capitol Campus I really like, although I do subjectively prefer the dome design of Salt Lake City's Capitol building. However, Salt Lake's State Capitol Complex is not the only civic jewel in downtown Salt Lake City. I wouldn't trade any U.S. State or City Civic Campus for what I think is one of a handful of the most beautiful City Halls and Library Squares in the nation.

The State Capitol Campus is often busier than many bother to be aware of. Even now between 200,000 and 300,000 visitors from K -12 frequent tours to social engagements and celebrations (very popular wedding venue and grand ballroom dances) Also, imagine what the increase will be with the new Museum when completed. Even without the upcoming museum, Utah's Capitol Complex visit numbers are right on par or higher than many of the nation's capitol complexes. Denver is a healthy number right around 300,000. The Salt Lake Capitol Campus is not quite 300,000 but getting close and is expected to multiply significantly with the completion of the new 'Museum of Utah.' If you look at the limitless photos and tourist comments regarding Utah's Capitol building it's easy to understand why even architectural design critics and experts consider it one of the 10 most beautiful Capitol buildings in the country both inside and out.

Washington Square handles several million visits per year as does Library Square. We won't even get into the local, regional, and international visitor numbers associated with what will be one of the most beautiful and visited downtown campuses in the hemisphere, that being Temple Square. I can only imagine what the numbers are going to be like once the Temple Square Complex is finished along with SEG's entertainment district and all expanded points such as City Creek and the Convention Center leading up to the Olympics.

I think comparatively speaking nationally, Salt Lake City and its CSA have a very bright future. Like everyone else, I have my list of development dreams I would like to see around downtown and between downtown and Salt Lake City's gorgeous canyons and the incomparable Park City/Heber area. You guys have listed many dreams I have felt possible also.

[freeshavocado]

Yeah I don't understand the argument that there's nowhere green to hang out immediately downtown. Say you live at Liberty Sky or Astra. The entrance to City Creek Park (which feeds into Memory Grove and then City Creek Canyon) is a 5-10 min walk. And Memory Grove is well-connected to the capitol grounds, IMO. Just a couple switchbacks on a nice path separate the two. The capitol grounds are my favorite place to hang out downtown. Lots of open lawn and some big shade trees.

5 mins from Astra/Liberty Sky In the other direction is Washington Square and Library Square. Lots of nice space to hang there, though I wish the homeless weren't always taking over the east side of Library Square. I also think those two squares would be more inviting if the car dealerships on the south side were removed in favor of nice apartment buildings and businesses. Will those dealerships ever sell?? It's not a great look.

That said, I'm all for more green space. I wish City Creek had never been paved over. Imagine a City Creek park meandering all the way through downtown. And I really hope the green loop comes to fruition.

[Atlas]

I think part of it is that SLC isn't built around a river or large body of water. There's the Jordan but it's pretty small and doesn't have a great reputation right now. That may change with the Power District. It's actually really nice right now when you get south to Murray/Midvale.

Boise has a nice river right through downtown, same with Austin (Lady Bird Lake). These natural assets have enabled robust greenways to develop more readily.

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by MountainSkyline

Canadian cities are on steroids. Vancouver CSA is almost identical in size to SLC and its out building all us cities except NYC!

Vancouver and Canada, in general, are in a different category because of 4 reasons:

1) Wealthy Chinese nationalists park their money into empty condo towers, to avoid taxation from the Chinese government. It's been called "whitewashing". I've heard that Vancouver is trying to put controls on it, but it's made Vancouver to be the most expensive and the most unaffordable city to live in in North America.

2) Condos, condos, condos...because of their socialist/strong government controls, there is less litigation from sue happy lawyers and nimbyists. Therefore, Canada builds tons of condo towers.

3) Similar to point #2 above, because their socialist/strong government, they have much more control on development. In other words, they have much more ability to control sprawl, and to allow massive densification next to mass-transit, despite that some of it might be directly adjacent to single family homes.

4) There are way less big cities in Canada than the U.S. So, population happens to concentrate into the 5 or 6 big cities: Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Winnipeg, & Edmonton. Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, & Winnipeg don't have large CSA/Metro populations compared to US Cities, and Toronto's CSA population is under 6 million, despite it's skyline looking bigger than Chicago's.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by freeshavocado

Yeah I don't understand the argument that there's nowhere green to hang out immediately downtown. Say you live at Liberty Sky or Astra. The entrance to City Creek Park (which feeds into Memory Grove and then City Creek Canyon) is a 5-10 min walk. And Memory Grove is well-connected to the capitol grounds, IMO. Just a couple switchbacks on a nice path separate the two. The capitol grounds are my favorite place to hang out downtown. Lots of open lawn and some big shade trees.

5 mins from Astra/Liberty Sky In the other direction is Washington Square and Library Square. Lots of nice space to hang there, though I wish the homeless weren't always taking over the east side of Library Square. I also think those two squares would be more inviting if the car dealerships on the south side were removed in favor of nice apartment buildings and businesses. Will those dealerships ever sell?? It's not a great look.

That said, I'm all for more green space. I wish City Creek had never been paved over. Imagine a City Creek park meandering all the way through downtown. And I really hope the green loop comes to fruition.

I don't think anyone is saying there's no greenspace to hang out downtown. It's just that options are lacking, especially in terms of size and draw.

There's not a civic plaza that seems accessible. I think what also hurts downtown is that it's still not very walkable. The wide streets, especially State (which your two examples, unfortunately, are located on) is just not very appealing for walking.

[i-215]

Originally Posted by Comrade

There's not a civic plaza that seems accessible. I think what also hurts downtown is that it's still not very walkable. The wide streets, especially State (which your two examples, unfortunately, are located on) is just not very appealing for walking.

The few places I can think of are private property.

• Galavan Center
• LDS church "plaza"
• Anything inside City Creek
• The fountain at the Gateway

None of those have the "Pioneer Square" (Portland) vibes or NY Central Park, etc.

[delts145]

Anything Portland, especially much of downtown is an apocalyptic cesspool. Who in their right mind would want to compare Portland's trajectory with Salt Lake City? Portland is one of the last cities I would use as a positive example. To make matters worse, those remaining citizens with common sense are fleeing by the thousands. The prognosis is that it will take decades to reverse its demise, and that reversal is highly doubtful.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by delts145

Anything Portland, especially much of downtown is an apocalyptic cesspool. Who in their right mind would want to compare Portland's trajectory with Salt Lake City? Portland is one of the last cities I would use as a positive example. To make matters worse, those remaining citizens with common sense are fleeing by the thousands. The prognosis is that it will take decades to reverse its demise, and that reversal is highly doubtful

lmao if you're going to rip another city, please at least be serious. You just embarrass yourself and Salt Lake. You sound as unhinged as the KSL comments about any story dealing with downtown Salt Lake.

Here's that apocalyptic cesspool, BTW from March:

• Video Link

[delts145]

You're castigating me and calling me an embarrassment? Wow, talk about a bold faced hypocrite!!

If once in a great while and on a very rare occasion I disagree strongly about something I will take that right. We are all well aware that I am not nearly as frequent with smack as you Comrade!!

[mstar]

I have been to Portland. I think it is "OK", but I don't think there is anything special about it. I would much rather live in Salt Lake than Portland. I am not ripping the city, just saying I wasn't all that impressed with it.

[Nebula3lem123]

Originally Posted by delts145

You're castigating me and calling me an embarrassment? Wow, talk about a bold faced hypocrite!!

If once in a great while and on a very rare occasion I disagree strongly about something I will take that right. We are all well aware that I am not nearly as frequent with smack as you Comrade!!

Well you did call Portland a "cesspool". I'd much rather Comrade's hot takes than, well that.