Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I think French Quebecers reject this sentiment. Most of them have been in this country longer than some recognized bands in Canada. They are the dominant culture in a democracy so they get to decide what it looks like. Granted the justificiation based on being "original" is a bit ironic given the dismissal of indigenous issues that is pretty common in Quebec.

I think the highlighted is very very true. No one is dumb enough to not recognize that Indigenous people were here earlier, but still, to most of us the idea that our presence here is illegitimate is like making the same equation with the Sami in Scandinavia versus the descendants of Vikings there. It just makes no sense.

It's extremely out of fashion to say it today, but French Canadian culture is Euro-descended for sure but distinctive enough from its origins to affirm that it's quasi-indigenous to Canada. In the same way that Spanish-speaking and derived Mexican culture is indigenous to Mexico. No one with a brain would claim that the majority of Mexicans are just "Spanish" (sic) interlopers who happen to be living on someone else's land.

[kwoldtimer]

Since the advent of social media, "polite society" seems to have become an endangered species.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I wonder whether the English speakers of Iles de la Madeleine have a distinctive accent? I don't think I've ever heard it mentioned.

My ex brother-in-law was a Magdalen Island Anglo (from the Anglo island of the archipelago — don’t recall the name) and his accent wasn’t different from Gaspe Anglos which wasn’t different to my ears from standard Canadian Anglo.

A native speaker like you might have picked up on slight traces of accent.

[Acajack]

In far far eastern Quebec on the Lower North Shore of the St. Lawrence, near the border with Labrador, you have a small population of Anglo-Quebecers who speak like Newfoundlanders.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In far far eastern Quebec on the Lower North Shore of the St. Lawrence, near the border with Labrador, you have a small population of Anglo-Quebecers who speak like Newfoundlanders.

And voted in favor of independence in 1995 if I remember correctly.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

My ex brother-in-law was a Magdalen Island Anglo (from the Anglo island of the archipelago — don’t recall the name) and his accent wasn’t different from Gaspe Anglos which wasn’t different to my ears from standard Canadian Anglo.

A native speaker like you might have picked up on slight traces of accent.

The anglophone island there is called La Grosse Île.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

And voted in favor of independence in 1995 if I remember correctly.

I am not sure that the anglophones there did so themselves, but yes the entire wider region did vote Oui. But the wider region's population is overwhelmingly francophone.

Some of the anglophones there would probably like to be annexed to Newfoundland-and-Labrador. Similar to how the German speakers in southern Tyrol which is part of Italy would like to join Austria!

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not sure that the anglophones there did so themselves, but yes the entire wider region did vote Oui. But the wider region's population is overwhelmingly francophone.

Some of the anglophones there would probably like to be annexed to Newfoundland-and-Labrador. Similar to how the German speakers in southern Tyrol which is part of Italy would like to join Austria!

Yes and with no road connection to the rest of Quebec it's likely to attempt to seccede should Quebec get independance. One of the most likely to be successful as well. Though Indigenous lands in the north probably would have more RoC support and be more militant.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

That's an astute observation. I guess the postnational line by Trudeau probably came from Katie Telford who is a Toronontian and has a British empire parent and of the age when that was in its final throes and I am sure a inflection point in her childhood.

I'm an Ontario transplant but visiting a childhood friend in the early 90ss who were the 100 year old Toronto stock I remember getting a multiday tour of the city and the pride of the cool ethnic neighbourhood that was the Danforth or Chinatown but nostalgia for Toronto the Good. Immigration was bringing in good catholic food but the protestants were still in charge. A few years later I had a Toronto exile for a neighbour and we were excited to go to the small town Greek festival or whatever and I remember him saying yeah we've been there and done that and it doesn't end well. I just thought he was a racist old guy at the time as we love the early shoots of immigration making things less boring. And it was so nice us Canadians let them keep their culture not like the racist assimilation Americans.

.

Interesting takes though I'd still argue it's highly debatable that the integration of Greeks and a host of other groups in Toronto hasn't been hugely successful.

[Acajack]

François Legault tooting his own horn. Salaries have been rising faster in Quebec than in the ROC since the CAQ was elected in 2018.

https://x.com/francoislegault/status...602734/photo/1

[Acajack]

Weren't we saying exactly this very recently?

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/paris...tte/index.html

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Weren't we saying exactly this very recently?

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/paris...tte/index.html

'While “excuse me” might be an acceptable way to get someone’s attention in the US, in France it would be considered overly abrupt and rude.'

Canadians find that kind of rude too, tbh.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

François Legault tooting his own horn. Salaries have been rising faster in Quebec than in the ROC since the CAQ was elected in 2018.

https://x.com/francoislegault/status...602734/photo/1

Not really a high bar to surpass, given the ROC has borne the most of JT’s pet Scheme of Wage Depression. I’d be curious, how do we compare to other developed countries? (If we’re actually close to leading the pack, I may consider being okay with that aspect of the CAQ’s job so far.)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The anglophone island there is called La Grosse Île.

Yep, exactly. That’s it. Thanks!

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's human nature but in Canada it's always been quite strongly frowned-upon in polite company.

If that's less and less the case (as some of us are observing) then that's a pretty huge change.

(My memories go back to the late 70s.)

The irony is that the open vitriol is really ratcheting up in Southern Ontario and the GTA, which makes sense since it's ground zero of Trudeau's immigration ponzi schemes.

But Québec and Montréal has way less open racial tension at this moment in time. As SO and I shuttle back and forth between the two provinces regularly, it's become quite noticeable since post-COVID.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

The irony is that the open vitriol is really ratcheting up in Southern Ontario and the GTA, which makes sense since it's ground zero of Trudeau's immigration ponzi schemes.

But Québec and Montréal has way less open racial tension at this moment in time. As SO and I shuttle back and forth between the two provinces regularly, it's become quite noticeable since post-COVID.

The baseline level of tension between immigrants and established locals has always been a bit higher in Montreal and Quebec than in Toronto and the ROC. Actually in the latter it's been extremely low until very recently.

Here in Quebec it was of course related to the reluctance and even hostility of more than a few newcomers towards learning and speaking French.

So my assessment for today is that the level of tension has remained basically the same here, whereas in Anglo-Canada it's increased substantially, which is a totally new thing or at least something that hasn't been seen much in living memory.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Bill 21 would have more credibility if it didn't consider Christianity to be "cultural heritage," thereby allowing public schools to retain their giant crosses and saint's names, and of course public holidays that enshrine Christian traditions like Easter, Christmas and St-Jean-Baptiste (conveniently renamed la fête nationale).

There's a difference between laïcité and catho-laïcité.

That would be a bit extreme no?

Even in officially atheist China, Beijing tolerates Catholic and Anglican schools in its two SARs, Hong Kong and Macau. Despite these schools being relics of China's century of humiliation and western colonial subjugation, these schools can still keep their saint names and crosses as cultural heritage.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The baseline level of tension between immigrants and established locals has always been a bit higher in Montreal and Quebec than in Toronto and the ROC. Actually in the latter it's been extremely low until very recently.

Here in Quebec it was of course related to the reluctance and even hostility of more than a few newcomers towards learning and speaking French.

So my assessment for today is that the level of tension has remained basically the same here, whereas in Anglo-Canada it's increased substantially, which is a totally new thing or at least something that hasn't been seen much in living memory.

I think this is right except let's not pretend it was only about language. Haitans have a lot of hostility and speak perfect French.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

François Legault tooting his own horn. Salaries have been rising faster in Quebec than in the ROC since the CAQ was elected in 2018.

https://x.com/francoislegault/status...602734/photo/1

He sounds exactly like Macron. And seems as misunderstood as Macron.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I think this is right except let's not pretend it was only about language. Haitans have a lot of hostility and speak perfect French.

If there is any tangible difference in the historic baseline between Quebec and say Ontario, it's almost entirely due to language.

I say this as someone who on an entire side of his family is descended from non-European immigrants who integrated with French-speaking Canadians in the 20th century.