VIA Rail

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by acottawa

None of these examples are pre-911. Switzerland joined Schengen in 2008, the Eastern European examples I gave joined Schengen in 2007. The Russia-Finland example was only 5 years ago.

Maybe you are right that the US and Canada are less reasonable on border issues than Russia, but I am also not sure that anyone has looked into the matter in a serious way.

The problem of your examples is not whether or not they are pre-9/11, but that they are inherently incompatible with US-levels of border paranoia and Wikipedia has a quite detailed and illustrative account of how overly strict border procedures killed off „The International“, i.e. the Toronto-Chicago cross-border service:

Substantial delays crossing the international border after the September 11th attacks, combined with freight congestion and the 2003 SARS outbreak, drastically reduced ridership. In 2004, the train was replaced with the Blue Water, which offered a better interstate schedule and higher reliability.

[…]

Until 2001, the International had a customs stop of about one hour, with U.S. officials conducting screenings on the train at Port Huron.[17] After the September 11 attacks, security personnel were redeployed to the Blue Water Bridge, and U.S. Customs refused to continue on-board screenings. (On-board screenings continued on Amtrak's two of the three other border-crossing routes; Amtrak Cascades uses preclearance instead.) Westbound passengers had to be bussed with their luggage from Sarnia to Port Huron, costing Amtrak $27,000 a month.[17] The security issues caused massive delays, even after on-board screening resumed on February 19, 2002, amid complaints from the state and both railroads. By this time, just 8 to 15 passengers crossed the border on a typical day.[17]

Delays caused by the border crossing and freight congestion continued to erode ridership, as did the 2003 SARS outbreak in Toronto. Ridership plunged from 125,126 in 1997 to just 88,045 in 2002.[20] Amtrak suggested to Michigan that the International be truncated to Port Huron, which would allow for a more reliable trip on the former Blue Water Limited schedule, restore connections in Chicago, and allow day trips to Chicago.[17] With state agreement, the final International ran eastbound on April 22, 2004, and westbound the next day (along with a Port Huron eastbound on the International schedule). On April 24, 2004, the Port Huron-Chicago Blue Water began operation. Via retained a single daily Toronto-Sarnia round trip that was merged into its Corridor service, but a planned Port Huron-Sarnia bus was never implemented.[17]

Similarly, the US border authorities have made abundantly clear that they will only tolerate additional cross-border rail services if border checks are performed at pre-clearance facilites - and the continued absence of such at Montreal‘s Gare Centrale is a prime reason why plans to extend the Vermonter back to Montreal have been stalled…

[Nouvellecosse]

If you have the political will, you can overcome huge obstacles. You can find innovative sources of funding and ways to lower costs. You can make extra room, invent new technologies and develop new procedures. But without the political will, even the smallest barrier becomes insurmountable. So if the US has no desire to streamline border crossings, little can happen until that changes. Fortunately there's still plenty to keep Canada busy on this side of the border before we need to worry about them.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

If you have the political will, you can overcome huge obstacles. You can find innovative sources of funding and ways to lower costs. You can make extra room, invent new technologies and develop new procedures. But without the political will, even the smallest barrier becomes insurmountable. So if the US has no desire to streamline border crossings, little can happen until that changes. Fortunately there's still plenty to keep Canada busy on this side of the border before we need to worry about them.

Agreed, and finally funding and building that long-promissed cross-border facility at Gare Centrale (to speed up the Adirondack and extend the Vermonter) is clearly within our camp…

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

The problem of your examples is not whether or not they are pre-9/11, but that they are inherently incompatible with US-levels of border paranoia and Wikipedia has a quite detailed and illustrative account of how overly strict border procedures killed off „The International“, i.e. the Toronto-Chicago cross-border service:

Substantial delays crossing the international border after the September 11th attacks, combined with freight congestion and the 2003 SARS outbreak, drastically reduced ridership. In 2004, the train was replaced with the Blue Water, which offered a better interstate schedule and higher reliability.

[…]

Until 2001, the International had a customs stop of about one hour, with U.S. officials conducting screenings on the train at Port Huron.[17] After the September 11 attacks, security personnel were redeployed to the Blue Water Bridge, and U.S. Customs refused to continue on-board screenings. (On-board screenings continued on Amtrak's two of the three other border-crossing routes; Amtrak Cascades uses preclearance instead.) Westbound passengers had to be bussed with their luggage from Sarnia to Port Huron, costing Amtrak $27,000 a month.[17] The security issues caused massive delays, even after on-board screening resumed on February 19, 2002, amid complaints from the state and both railroads. By this time, just 8 to 15 passengers crossed the border on a typical day.[17]

Delays caused by the border crossing and freight congestion continued to erode ridership, as did the 2003 SARS outbreak in Toronto. Ridership plunged from 125,126 in 1997 to just 88,045 in 2002.[20] Amtrak suggested to Michigan that the International be truncated to Port Huron, which would allow for a more reliable trip on the former Blue Water Limited schedule, restore connections in Chicago, and allow day trips to Chicago.[17] With state agreement, the final International ran eastbound on April 22, 2004, and westbound the next day (along with a Port Huron eastbound on the International schedule). On April 24, 2004, the Port Huron-Chicago Blue Water began operation. Via retained a single daily Toronto-Sarnia round trip that was merged into its Corridor service, but a planned Port Huron-Sarnia bus was never implemented.[17]

Similarly, the US border authorities have made abundantly clear that they will only tolerate additional cross-border rail services if border checks are performed at pre-clearance facilites - and the continued absence of such at Montreal‘s Gare Centrale is a prime reason why plans to extend the Vermonter back to Montreal have been stalled…

That may well be the case, but it is a different argument that the one you were using before that it can’t be done or that nobody does it.

Frankly, I think if Trudeau had gone to Amtrak Joe with a specific proposal for on board clearance I think Biden would have at least required the agencies to look at the proposal seriously. I just don’t think it is on anyone’s radar.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by acottawa

That may well be the case, but it is a different argument that the one you were using before that it can’t be done or that nobody does it.

My argument was not that on-board border checks cannot be performed on the Canadian-American border, but that if such practices are virtually unknown at borders with much more pragmatic attitudes towards border security, it is simply not realistic to expect such practices to get prioneered at our border. I had indeed forgotten about the Finnish-Russian border, even though I’ve seen with my own eyes the border agents waiting at the platform in Kouvola (some 100 km west of the border town Vainikkala) waiting to board the Sapsan (which has been and remains suspended since March 2020, which are of course not relevant for our discussion here), but that doesn’t invalidate my argument.

Frankly, I think if Trudeau had gone to Amtrak Joe with a specific proposal for on board clearance I think Biden would have at least required the agencies to look at the proposal seriously. I just don’t think it is on anyone’s radar.

I believe the (for me at least) rather surprising burst of plans for uilding a border facility in Windsor to allow cross-border rail connections between Toronto, Detroit and Vhicago to be restored, clearly shows that there is some level of international commitment to improve the Status Quo. However, given how the oolitical gridlock in the United States is slowing down even the most mundane (and uncontroversial) policy decisions, I can’t blame anyone in Washington for not treating improved border procedures and cross-border connections for one of the tiniest niches of an already shockingly unpopular transportation mode as any kind of priority. That said, with the stalled plans for the border facility at Gare Centrale, the roadblocks seem to be firmly on our own side of the border…

Many of the discussions we are having here would be better suited for a politics forum (or fantasy threads), as they assume an alternative political universe than the one we Canadians and especially our American neighbours live in…

[VANRIDERFAN]

As we sit in Smith Falls waiting for the freight train to pass. I wonder what the state of Train travel would have been if we “just got on with it” with the Turbo Train in 1967. Do you think there would have been a dedicated passenger rail line from QC to Windsor by now? I’m not saying high speed but at least high frequency rail?

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Many of the discussions we are having here would be better suited for a politics forum (or fantasy threads), as they assume an alternative political universe than the one we Canadians and especially our American neighbours live in…

I think that's a bit of a stretch. The thing with politics is that things can change, sometimes quite drastically, especially after an election. And certainly with multiple elections across several jurisdictions. So hoping for a change in government perspective to go from opposed or ambivalent to supportive is hardly a different universe. Especially since many of the things we're discussing wouldn't even start until projects like HFR are well underway or nearing completion.

While I can't speak for anyone else, I wouldn't expect any significant upgrade in international service to happen at a time when our domestic service is borderline antiquated and barely perfunctory. I see the international aspect specially as a natural continuation of intercity rail progress once we've achieved those easier goals since we don't have many other domestic routes that would be suitable. Plus, even stuff like HFR has advanced at a glacial pace despite there being a purportedly supportive government. So we can assume that most ideas involve longer time frames, and while long term planning discussions are very uncertain and speculative it isn't exactly fantasy. And if anyone doesn't like discussing anything too speculative they can opt-out.

[sseguin]

Découvrez Lumi et la nouvelle flotte de VIA Rail : un train unique pour célébrer une nouvelle ère!

• Video Link

Ce train arbore une peinture jaune monochrome spéciale, rappelant l’un des premiers modèles de train opérés par VIA Rail, le Turbo. Il s’agit du seul des 32 nouveaux trains Siemens Venture à posséder cette peinture distinctive. Dans cette vidéo, nous explorons le design de Lumi et l’inspiration derrière celui-ci. Nous avons également eu l’opportunité de discuter avec les experts impliqués dans la conception, la réalisation et la mise en place de cette nouvelle flotte moderne.

AN ENGLISH VIDEO WILL RELEASE IN THE COMING DAYS

[MonctonRad]

Feds were in Moncton the other day for an announcement at the VIA station:

Feds confirm Via Rail will replace entire fleet of trains, no clarity on fixing N.B. tracks
Transport minister reiterates modernization plan; transport advocate says tracks should come first
Rhythm Rathi · CBC News · Posted: Jul 11, 2024 6:14 PM ADT | Last Updated: July 11
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...rail-1.7260958

Pretty meaningless news conference. While they confirmed the entire rail fleet in the country will be replaced (not just those trains serving the corridor routes), they refused to give a time line.

When quizzed by reporters after the announcement about the deplorable state of the Bathurst sub, and how this has placed a 50 km/hr speed limit on that section, they made no commitment to repair and upgrading that section. They were also non committal regarding any new Maritimes routes (like Moncton-Saint John).

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

They were also non committal regarding any new Maritimes routes (like Moncton-Saint John).

VIA will lack the necessary fleet for anyof its non-Corridor services until the full delivery of the new non-Corridor fleet, which will take at least 10 years. Given that there are at least two federal elections (and at least one likely change of government) until then, how meaningful would have any expression of commitment possibly been?

[sseguin]

Introducing Lumi and the New Fleet of VIA Rail!

In this video, we explore the design of Lumi and the inspiration behind it. Hear from the experts at VIA involved in the concept, design and execution of the new fleet project.

• Video Link

[Truenorth00]

High Speed options, standards challenges for HFR



Graeme Hampshire, Project Director for High Frequency Rail, gave a presentation at the TRACCS Rail Day event in Toronto on June 19, 2024, discussing the project’s ambitions and current status. Bringing decades of European railway experience to this role, and speaking to an audience of industry experts and railway suppliers, Graeme Hampshire was also candid about the challenges that High Frequency Rail faces.

Although the process of selecting the private development partner to build and operate HFR is ongoing, his presentation also provided a first tentative look at the specifications and potential travel times of the faster “Option B” that bidder must submit in addition to their proposals for a 200 km/h system.

Both options are to be 25kV electrified, although still with a possibility of electrification gaps that would have to be crossed using alternative power sources, and faster option may be up to 220 mph / 360 km/h.

It is noteworthy that the Option A time from Toronto to Ottawa has dropped below three hours. This would suggest that a number of realignments to address the curvature of the route between Peterborough and Smith Falls are envisaged. Stops at Perth and a “shoulder” station to connect with Eglinton LRT and the Ontario Line appear to have been dropped.

It was noted that the proposed route also has at least 500 grade crossings, all of which would have to be closed on segments where high-speed operations are envisaged, and even on segments operated at conventional speeds, closures or significant upgrades in cross protection will be required.

....

One of the greatest challenges for the HFR project is due to Canadian railway standards having been developed for joint operation with freight railways at conventional speeds, and therefore lagging behind those applicable Europe, Asia, and even the USA for frequent and faster passenger services. Without a Canadian track standard for operation above 100 mph, the project can’t be built. The same is true of signalling, enhanced train control, and for rolling stock capable of more than 125 mph.

....

The project will also have to contend with three different platform heights – 49in, 25in, and 5in – although this could arguably be addressed by providing high platforms at all stations – and interfaces with up to six host railways.

...

The 2024 federal budget provided $371.8 million over six years for the ongoing development of HFR, in addition to previous funding. Each of the three bidding teams receives a stipend so that all the intellectual property created become the property of the project and the best ideas from all the proposals combined. The timeline is currently:

• Fall 2024 – Government will select the Partner from the three bidders.
  
• Fall 2024 – Government will provide direction for the scope of the project to be defined during the co-development phase.
  
• Spring 2025 – The Partner and VIA-HFR commence working together and begin co-development “combining strengths from both sectors” to advance and optimize the project design and scope.
  
• TDB – Final investment decision by Government and start of construction.
  
• Early-Mid 2030s – HFR in operation

...

https://www.transportaction.ca/topic...enges-for-hfr/

[Nouvellecosse]

^ Sounds interesting but it's impossible to compare the options without knowing their estimated costs and delivery times. But either would be a big improvement and even option A would probably double the corridor ridership in a decade

[Truenorth00]

What's interesting to me is that there seem to have real options analysis. This can be used to even develop hybrid options based on ridership and cost projections. For example, they may be value in speeding up Ottawa-Montreal and Toronto-Peterborough if they can project commuter markets. This is the work that should have been finished 5 years ago. Better late than never. And good to see that we'll have a development contract award this Fall.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What's interesting to me is that there seem to have real options analysis. This can be used to even develop hybrid options based on ridership and cost projections. For example, they may be value in speeding up Ottawa-Montreal and Toronto-Peterborough if they can project commuter markets. This is the work that should have been finished 5 years ago. Better late than never. And good to see that we'll have a development contract award this Fall.

Yet, I can’t help but only laugh when I see maps and travel times which suggest that anyone could be so stupid and fund an Ottawa Bypass…

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Yet, I can’t help but only laugh when I see maps and travel times which suggest that anyone could be so stupid and fund an Ottawa Bypass…

Let's hope they winning bidder is wiser.