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  #2041  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2024, 1:11 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is online now
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Annual inflation rate dropped to 2.7% in June.
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  #2042  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2024, 4:22 PM
P'tit Renard P'tit Renard is offline
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Another casualty of Trudeau's ruthless and unfettered immigration ponzi schemes..Toronto's traffic congestion is at catastrophic levels, and it's killing the region's ability to function and facilitate mobility. Given Toronto's importance to Canada's economy, this will negatively slam the national economy:

Bad traffic causing locals to consider leaving Toronto: survey
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...2024-1.7264164

Among those who responded, 86 per cent of respondents said there is a crisis, with 89 per cent of drivers agreeing and 82 per cent of non drivers agreeing with the statement.

Of the 86 per cent of people who said the city and its surrounding areas are facing a traffic crisis, 89 per cent of them are drivers and 82 per cent aren't. Nearly half of the people who responded say they avoid shopping, going out for entertainment or to watch sports because of congestion.

Giles Gherson, the board of trade's CEO, said one of the survey's concerning insights is that 62 per cent don't want to commute to the office due to congestion.
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  #2043  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2024, 5:11 PM
isaidso isaidso is offline
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A lot of Canadians talk about being environmentally conscious but they're still stuck in a 1950s mindset. It's 2024, yet millions of Torontonians still demand that they can drive everywhere they want to go and then expect parking to be provided everywhere they want to go. It's completely ridiculous.

That may work in a city of 300,000 but a global metropolis of 7 million? We ran out of space for more car lanes 30 years ago. The issue isn't population (as much as some insist on framing it like that) but an auto-centric culture coupled with a PT system that's been in catchup mode for 20 years due to decades of neglect.

I'm thinking of leaving Toronto too but it's not due to traffic. It's how many selfish, entitled people there are in this city. 80-90% of the public realm is devoted to cars yet they're still not happy? Haven't they destroyed enough of Toronto already? Walk, bike, take PT like the rest of us. If they leave Toronto, good riddance, but feel sorry for the city/town that has to put up with them.

I own 2 cars and love driving but f these people insist on taking 3000 lbs of metal, plastic, and rubber with them where ever they go, I have ZERO sympathy if they get stuck in traffic. Where do they think they are, Orillia?
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Last edited by isaidso; Jul 16, 2024 at 5:36 PM.
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  #2044  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2024, 6:56 PM
P'tit Renard P'tit Renard is offline
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
A lot of Canadians talk about being environmentally conscious but they're still stuck in a 1950s mindset. It's 2024, yet millions of Torontonians still demand that they can drive everywhere they want to go and then expect parking to be provided everywhere they want to go. It's completely ridiculous.

That may work in a city of 300,000 but a global metropolis of 7 million? We ran out of space for more car lanes 30 years ago. The issue isn't population (as much as some insist on framing it like that) but an auto-centric culture coupled with a PT system that's been in catchup mode for 20 years due to decades of neglect.
Why would we flood the GTA overnight with millions of more fresh bodies, if the infrastructure can't even keep up with population levels from twenty years ago?? Before you start lecturing other Torontonians, consider how severely inadequate Toronto's current public transit system is, and how it's not possible for the large majority of GTAers to rely on it given the disperse nature of our employment and retail centres. Even the majority of our social circles who live right smack in the middle of downtown have to keep a car in order to drive to work.
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  #2045  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2024, 6:58 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Annual inflation rate dropped to 2.7% in June.
Another cut July 24? Magic 8 ball says yes.
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  #2046  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2024, 7:39 PM
Build.It Build.It is offline
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Another genius thought-provoking fluffpiece from CBC. From that article:

"Matti Siemiatycki, director of the infrastructure institute at the university of Toronto, says the city may have to consider congestion pricing to ease traffic."

Yep don't see that backfiring at all.

People generally drive when there are no alternatives. Making it more expensive to drive isn't going to suddenly stop people from driving. They may just choose to drive somewhere outside city limits where they can get to work without penalty, eventually driving businesses to set up shop outside city limits as well.
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  #2047  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2024, 7:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
The issue isn't population (as much as some insist on framing it like that) but an auto-centric culture coupled with a PT system that's been in catchup mode for 20 years due to decades of neglect.
One model is:

Congestion = Population / (Roads + Transit)

You can critique this model but I bet it's more informative than the implicit model people have when they talk about induced demand and other likely second-order effects. I think the fact we've lost sight of the basics so much says something about our culture and the sort of typically not very technically minded people who get bandwidth in the public debate.

In Toronto, roads have been almost unchanged, transit has maybe moderately improved, and population has grown significantly. You can argue about which factor is to blame but it's really 3 factors in combination, and the easiest to adjust was probably the population factor since that's been determined directly by a federal policy. I would argue that since the situation is so bad, it's good to try to improve all of these factors. I'm pro transit but I'm skeptical that we can have sustainable highly functional cities growing at 3% with basically 2000's or older road networks. It's also worth pointing out that we're mass importing workers for Tim Hortons while we can't seem to build infrastructure which can actually be a good use of TFWs.
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  #2048  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2024, 8:16 PM
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People don’t drive to work “because there is no alternative”. They drive because it’s still more comfortable than sharing an overcrowded bus or train that takes twice as long. The pleasures of sitting next to some junkie who has been stewing in his own urine for weeks isn’t so appealing that I’ll waste double my time on a bus each day.
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  #2049  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2024, 8:25 PM
P'tit Renard P'tit Renard is offline
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
People don’t drive to work “because there is no alternative”. They drive because it’s still more comfortable than sharing an overcrowded bus or train that takes twice as long. The pleasures of sitting next to some junkie who has been stewing in his own urine for weeks isn’t so appealing that I’ll waste double my time on a bus each day.
That's only if the job is located in transit friendly, central location. In reality, the majority of employment in Canada is located in transit hostile suburbs. Case in point is the fact that Canadian HQs of most MNCs is actually located in the office parks of the 905, where the pedestrian environment is virtually non-existent and outright hostile, while local transit service like YRT is sporadic, erratic and unreliable. Travelling by transit takes so long in the 905 that it's not reasonable to expect Torontonians to commute by public transit.
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  #2050  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2024, 8:35 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Build.It View Post
People generally drive when there are no alternatives. Making it more expensive to drive isn't going to suddenly stop people from driving. They may just choose to drive somewhere outside city limits where they can get to work without penalty, eventually driving businesses to set up shop outside city limits as well.
I'm going to call bullshit on this. People drive because it's easy and they are lazy. There are a ton of car trips that could be transit instead, but people are choosing their car. Why should we subsidize this behaviour?
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  #2051  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2024, 9:41 PM
trece verde trece verde is offline
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Can someone please explain how municipal/regional/provincial governments ignoring spending on public transit for 20 years is blamable on the federal government? I'm missing the visible connective tissue here...
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  #2052  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2024, 9:54 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
I own 2 cars and love driving but f these people insist on taking 3000 lbs of metal, plastic, and rubber with them where ever they go, I have ZERO sympathy if they get stuck in traffic. Where do they think they are, Orillia?

Traffic doesn't just affect drivers though. In Toronto (and the rest of Canada), the majority of transit trips are made using surface transit - most of it in mixed traffic. Those commutes get lengthened just as much by congestion as those being made by car. Ever tried taking a streetcar during rush hour?

And congestion doesn't just affect commutes either. It also impedes the shipments and deliveries that are necessary for our economy to function; and it reduces emergency response times, amongst other things. In other words, there are cascading effects that impact a lot more than just motorists.
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  #2053  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2024, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Build.It View Post
Another genius thought-provoking fluffpiece from CBC. From that article:

"Matti Siemiatycki, director of the infrastructure institute at the university of Toronto, says the city may have to consider congestion pricing to ease traffic."

Yep don't see that backfiring at all.

People generally drive when there are no alternatives. Making it more expensive to drive isn't going to suddenly stop people from driving. They may just choose to drive somewhere outside city limits where they can get to work without penalty, eventually driving businesses to set up shop outside city limits as well.
With congestion pricing it's very common for people to interpret the intention as being for all or most people to switch from driving to transit. That's what the statement "suddenly stop people from driving" implies at least. In reality, congestion is caused by too many vehicles trying to use a road thus pushing it beyond its capacity. But that "too many" is a pretty small percentage of the total capacity. 100% capacity is the number of vehicles a road can handle without experiencing congestion under normal conditions. Any additional vehicles trying to use it beyond that number will result in congestion to some degree. Just going over by 1% may only result in slight congestion delays while say 5% could cause quite significant delays while 10% would be full gridlock.

So the goal of congestion pricing is simply to remove the excess vehicles from the road, not to remove all private vehicles from the road. And the fact that the public transit system in a city like Toronto already provides millions of rides per day means that there are plenty of people willing and able to use it and there's nothing unreasonable or unrealistic about diverting a couple percentage of road users onto transit considering that both transit usage and road usage fluctuate by a few percentage all the time. And transit usage is still down in most places compared to pre-pandemic highs.
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  #2054  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2024, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
One model is:

Congestion = Population / (Roads + Transit)

You can critique this model but I bet it's more informative than the implicit model people have when they talk about induced demand and other likely second-order effects. I think the fact we've lost sight of the basics so much says something about our culture and the sort of typically not very technically minded people who get bandwidth in the public debate.

In Toronto, roads have been almost unchanged, transit has maybe moderately improved, and population has grown significantly. You can argue about which factor is to blame but it's really 3 factors in combination, and the easiest to adjust was probably the population factor since that's been determined directly by a federal policy. I would argue that since the situation is so bad, it's good to try to improve all of these factors. I'm pro transit but I'm skeptical that we can have sustainable highly functional cities growing at 3% with basically 2000's or older road networks. It's also worth pointing out that we're mass importing workers for Tim Hortons while we can't seem to build infrastructure which can actually be a good use of TFWs.
While there's definitely some truth to that, it's also often misleading. The main thing people miss is that roads and transit are often the same thing because the majority of transit usage in most places happens on the road rather than in other places like subways. So the same road network can be made to handle fewer or greater numbers of people based on the percentage of density of people using the roads. And the biggest thing that determined density is the number of people per vehicle with transit vehicles being the champions in that regard. If you go from having one out of 100 vehicles being a transit vehicle like a bus or streetcar to one in 50, then you're ability to transport people increases drastically without adding any new road lanes at all. Same thing if you go from one in 50 road vehicles being transit to one in 25 since every bus that's added is the equivalent of say 40 or 50 cars.

In a place that has narrow roads there's obviously going to be a lower maximum capacity then a place with wider roads, but in North America we tend to have wider roads (and stroads) than in many other regions. So we're capable of carrying significantly more people with our existing road network and without adding other transit modes even if those other modes are desirable to have. So it's a political decision to use road space less efficiently and require additional capacity to be built pre-maturely in the form of more/wider roads or transit ROWs like subways. The problem of course is that from a political standpoint many people falsely believe that if you take away a lane of road space from general traffic and dedicate it to transit (or impose other restrictions on general traffic) that it will reduce the overall capacity of the road and increase congestion when in reality it actually increases road capacity by changing the vehicle fleet balance to one that's more efficient (buses and street cars versus private automobiles allowing higher capacity vehicles to move more quickly).

It's basically the same as with land use and density. Just like a piece of land can hold significantly more people if developed using denser building stock like apartment buildings or townhouses, a road can carry significantly more people by having using multi-passenger vehicles. And the same way you can boost residential density by adding a few apartment building into the mix, you can boost road density by adding more buses into the mix. So you can look at a congested road and tell how close it is to its maximum passenger carrying capacity by seeing the proportion of vehicles with few or one passenger compared to mutli-passenger vehicles. Just like you can look at a piece of land and tell how close it is to its maximum density by seeing the ratio of fully detached houses compared to multi-unit. So just like a place can't claim it's out of land and can't handle more people when it's mostly low-density detached houses, we also can't claim that we're out of road space and can't transport more people when the majority of vehicles are private automobiles. So while more transit infrastructure is great and I want it, it isn't true that more infrastructure is "necessary" in order to transport more people. It's just politically necessary rather than functionally necessary.
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  #2055  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2024, 11:03 PM
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Interesting. Looks like the GTHA has finally passed Chicagoland and is now working on LA. I want to next compare with UK cities as the closest they have is Greater London.
"Working on" LA, I doubt GTHA or "Greater Golden Horseshoe" will surpass LA (CSA), which has 18 million people, in the next 40 years. That gulf is too wide. London metropolitan area is also close to 15 million, so quite a ways away.

GTHA being #3 among North America (or #4, if you include Mexico) is already a pretty strong population milestone.
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  #2056  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2024, 12:48 AM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is online now
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Can someone please explain how municipal/regional/provincial governments ignoring spending on public transit for 20 years is blamable on the federal government? I'm missing the visible connective tissue here...
Canadians have never been very good with that constitutional division of powers stuff. The Canadian government, notably this one, tends to use that to its advantage, so maybe it's fair that it bites them back from time to time.
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  #2057  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2024, 12:55 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by trece verde View Post
Can someone please explain how municipal/regional/provincial governments ignoring spending on public transit for 20 years is blamable on the federal government? I'm missing the visible connective tissue here...
Can’t believe it needs to be explained, but if the population was somewhat comparable to what it was ~20 years ago, then our current transportation infrastructure from ~20 years ago wouldn’t be greatly undersized/inadequate for our current population.

In other words, the basic formula that someone123 just shared. You don’t need any urgency on the denominator, if you’re not juicing the numerator like crazy. It’s elementary school level math
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  #2058  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2024, 1:04 AM
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Quebec will have added 110k people in the last 6 months, so the rate is not coming down.

Quebec +292k since Q2 2023.
Alberta +267k
BC +242k

Ontario +730k , maybe a problem in the near future

If we look at Texas, they always had rapid growth, adding about 3 to 5 million every 10 years since the 70's. Ontario is not used to the same growth. Not even 1 million every 5 years. Texas has a lot of cities that are exploding in size, Ontario only has 2, or 1.

Texas is very sprawl friendly so it's easy to growth without problem. Its GDP is also growing very fast , + $300B USD in 5 years.

What is the plan for Ontario ? ?
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  #2059  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2024, 4:30 AM
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Originally Posted by trece verde View Post
Can someone please explain how municipal/regional/provincial governments ignoring spending on public transit for 20 years is blamable on the federal government? I'm missing the visible connective tissue here...
I think it depends on what type of spending we're talking about. If we're talking about operating costs and lower jurisdictions cutting funding, then that's really just a them thing. There are some things in which there is a clear delineation of responsibility, but when it comes to major transit infrastructure projects it gets murkier. They're very difficult and expensive, so it tends to be too much for lower levels to take on by themselves. Of course it depends on the situation such as how big the project is in relation to the jurisdictional budgets and what kind of shape their finances are in. Some manage to pull it off but it works much better when all levels of government coordinate. So if the full trifecta isn't a possibility, some just find it too daunting to proceed. Which means the fed's willingness (or lack thereof) can greatly influence the willingness of the lower levels to spend.

Especially when it's the federal government that decided to amp up population growth and claims to want to reduce GHG emissions. If it has these goals and isn't taking reasonable actions to contribute to meeting them, then that's a problem.
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  #2060  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2024, 5:33 AM
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Originally Posted by trece verde View Post
Can someone please explain how municipal/regional/provincial governments ignoring spending on public transit for 20 years is blamable on the federal government? I'm missing the visible connective tissue here...

Because the population surge of recent years (ie. population growing faster than we can build new infrastructure to accommodate the added demand; thus increasing congestion) is almost entirely the responsibility of the federal government.
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