DETROIT | Ren Cen | potential redevelopment

[WhipperSnapper]

This would be a massive environmental waste to demolish. They should receive no public incentives or funds to pay for it. Figure it out. There's a lot of obsolete landmarks in rough shape right now but, no one is going to be demolishing New York's Chrysler Building.

[Steely Dan]

^ yes, demolition would be an utterly monumental waste.

Let's hope TNO is right and all of this demolition chatter that's leaking out is just a ploy to try and get city and state leaders to pony up the big bucks to help "save" the Ren Cen.

[animatedmartian]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ yes, demolition would be an utterly monumental waste.

Let's hope TNO is right and all of this demolition chatter that's leaking out is just a ploy to try and get city and state leaders to pony up the big bucks to help "save" the Ren Cen.

Nah. With the car companies, when they say they're going to demolish something, they usually end up doing it. They've demolished countless huge factories and won't hesitate to demolish an office building if they can't make money off of it or sell it to someone willing to pay for it.

It's literally just a cut and dry numbers game. Building doesn't make a profit? Building has no more use.

I think people get caught up in thinking there's a sense of pride at these companies to preserve buildings/architecture, which may be true while they occupy any particular building, but their goal is to chase the bottom line and there's no room for preservation in that.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

This would be a massive environmental waste to demolish. They should receive no public incentives or funds to pay for it. Figure it out. There's a lot of obsolete landmarks in rough shape right now but, no one is going to be demolishing New York's Chrysler Building.

You're really comparing the office towers at the RenCen to the Chrysler Building? Detroit has lots of renowned office towers, with arguably the third greatest collection of prewars on earth. Guardian Building and Fisher Building are iconic landmarks. The RenCen towers are nowhere close.

There's nothing to figure out. These office towers are obsolete and have no practical market. And yeah, it's wasteful, but car companies do this all the time. My brother lives near what was the Wixom Assembly Plant, which was 5 million square feet. Now it's all demolished.

[edale]

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

Nah. With the car companies, when they say they're going to demolish something, they usually end up doing it. They've demolished countless huge factories and won't hesitate to demolish an office building if they can't make money off of it or sell it to someone willing to pay for it.

It's literally just a cut and dry numbers game. Building doesn't make a profit? Building has no more use.

I think people get caught up in thinking there's a sense of pride at these companies to preserve buildings/architecture, which may be true while they occupy any particular building, but their goal is to chase the bottom line and there's no room for preservation in that.

Isn't Ford responsible for the massive renovation of Michigan Central Station? If money was all they cared about, why go through the expense and hassle renovating that seriously decayed structure? Not saying GM will feel the same about the Ren Cen, but just pushing back on your claim that the car companies are particularly anti-preservation.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

This would be a massive environmental waste to demolish. They should receive no public incentives or funds to pay for it. Figure it out. There's a lot of obsolete landmarks in rough shape right now but, no one is going to be demolishing New York's Chrysler Building.

The Chrysler Building and Renaissance Center have very different issues. The Chrysler Building is a bad office building in a great location. The Ren Cen is good office space in a bad location. The CB has one of the best locations of any skyscraper in the world, and is among the most well located in New York City.

The RenCen's issues are more analogous to what's happening with suburban malls and suburban office complexes. Auto dependent, single use, commercial spaces that America pumped out in the late 20th century seems to be having issues almost everywhere.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by edale

Isn't Ford responsible for the massive renovation of Michigan Central Station? If money was all they cared about, why go through the expense and hassle renovating that seriously decayed structure? Not saying GM will feel the same about the Ren Cen, but just pushing back on your claim that the car companies are particularly anti-preservation.

That project got like a half-billion in subsidies. Ford wasn't exactly taking a risk.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

That project got like a half-billion in subsidies. Ford wasn't exactly taking a risk.

And isn't it possible that GM might be trying to play the same subsidy game here?

"Look folks, there's just no economic way we can save or reuse these office towers, so we're likely gonna have to take some or all of them down, unless........."

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

And isn't it possible that GM might be trying to play the same subsidy game here?

"Look folks, there's just no economic way we can save or reuse these office towers, so we're likely gonna have to take some or all of them down, unless........."

Well yeah. If the State of MI offers $5 billion in subsidies to renovate, I don't doubt GM would be fine with that. Not sure why MI would do that, tho.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by edale

Isn't Ford responsible for the massive renovation of Michigan Central Station? If money was all they cared about, why go through the expense and hassle renovating that seriously decayed structure? Not saying GM will feel the same about the Ren Cen, but just pushing back on your claim that the car companies are particularly anti-preservation.

Ford bought and renovated Michigan Central out of a strategic move to generate good press and attract tech companies for their autonomous driving and mobility initiatives. It was part exploratory, part philanthropic. As Crawford pointed out, they got so much in tax breaks from the state that there was probably very little financial risk to the company.

Fun fact: Henry Ford II had the Renaissance Center built.

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

And isn't it possible that GM might be trying to play the same subsidy game here?

"Look folks, there's just no economic way we can save or reuse these office towers, so we're likely gonna have to take some or all of them down, unless........."

They already are doing that. As I mentioned upthread, they are asking the state for billions in subsidies to redevelop the site.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Ford bought and renovated Michigan Central out of a strategic move to generate good press and attract tech companies for their autonomous driving and mobility initiatives. It was part exploratory, part philanthropic. As Crawford pointed out, they got so much in tax breaks from the state that there was probably very little financial risk to the company.

Fun fact: Henry Ford II had the Renaissance Center built.

They got 200 million in subsidies and those are on the taxes over the course of 30 years. Compared to the over billion dollars it took to restore everything out of pocket. It wasn't much of a risk to Ford since they have many billions in their giant treasure chest of savings. They're the only ones that could afford it.

If the taxes made it so easy then somebody else would have came along and done it. Ford did a giant service to the city fixing that building.

They already are doing that. As I mentioned upthread, they are asking the state for billions in subsidies to redevelop the site.

Yeah they are, which is why I'm sure they love these demolition rumors. Makes it much easier to get something out of the public for renovations.

[edale]

What kind of renovations would the Ren Cen even need, though? It's not like the office space is necessarily outdated, there's just far too much of it. And it's not a suitable candidate for residential conversion, and basically no amount of subsidy would really change that. Seems like a totally different scenario than a historic building in need of significant rehab.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

The Chrysler Building and Renaissance Center have very different issues. The Chrysler Building is a bad office building in a great location. The Ren Cen is good office space in a bad location. The CB has one of the best locations of any skyscraper in the world, and is among the most well located in New York City.

What? Ren Cen's location isn't bad at all. The riverfront is one of the best spots in the city. And downtown has an only about 12% office vacancy rate. Detroit definitely needs that office space. Just manage the building right, do some updates and wait for new tenants. It was just fully occupied a few years ago...

[The North One]

Originally Posted by edale

What kind of renovations would the Ren Cen even need, though? It's not like the office space is necessarily outdated, there's just far too much of it. And it's not a suitable candidate for residential conversion, and basically no amount of subsidy would really change that. Seems like a totally different scenario than a historic building in need of significant rehab.

The complaints you'll hear are that the building is energy inefficient. Mainly due to the fact that it has single pane glass. But that's not at all out of the ordinary for buildings of it's time. They can update the glass and bring it up to modern efficiency standards, other skyscrapers have done this. I'm pretty sure the Sears Tower also used to have single pane glass.

The other thing people cite (which I don't think is even a real issue) is that the atrium/lobby has a confusing layout. Which if it's such a problem could be reconfigured. But people working there can obviously figure out where to go.

[animatedmartian]

Originally Posted by edale

Isn't Ford responsible for the massive renovation of Michigan Central Station? If money was all they cared about, why go through the expense and hassle renovating that seriously decayed structure? Not saying GM will feel the same about the Ren Cen, but just pushing back on your claim that the car companies are particularly anti-preservation.

Not anti-preservation specifically, just not their priority. Like I said, if they're occupying a building, of course they'll take care of it. But they're not in the business of owning real estate just to have it, it needs to serve a financial purpose.

The MCS move was because they needed presence in the city. Especially in an established neighborhood where they could develop their EV and related urban mobility technology. Renovation made sense because it's in the right location and the right size.

If the MCS had been demolished in any decades before, I think Ford would still choose that location and build new if there were no other limiting factors.