Housing Bubble II: The Quest To Build Enough Homes Where People Actually Need Them

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

I've been reading a few things about renters and home owners recenty and have only found out sometimes the owner is not that in control. Example, I was reading about these people bought a house intended for themselves to be their home and live in but the house has renters in it and the renters refuse to move out and the new owners have to jump through all these hoops and all this paper work that the renters are apparently ignoring and the old owners aren't doing much to help, this was somewhere in Ontario. And another example in BC is a renter is living in a suite inside a house that the owner sold and they also require paper work to be done but the renter is doing whatever they can not to move out.

I always assumed if a house with a rental suite in it has renters and the house is sold that the renters would have to move out but apparently they can stay? and some of them seem to be very adamant that they will not move out regardless of the home ownership change. Seems a little weird to me.

If you buy a house to live in immediately and it has renters in it, you want vacant possession as part of the deal.

[SpongeG]

maybe its different in BC and these are the examples of comments or attitudes people have to this happening. I guess i'm mostly surprised at people's attitudes, like its their home how dare they kick me out of the place i don't own.

Don’t leave without proper paperwork, landlords and realtors will run their mouth hoping you voluntarily leave. There is one other option they might try and thats to offer you cash for keys.

Oh we aren’t going anywhere without proper paperwork. Our landlord sent a text that they were planning to sell. We haven’t received anything in writing as of yet.

...

One bit of advice I would give from someone in a similar situation is to try to be at home when the realtor is doing showings.

Realtors are motivated to sell the house and often are happy to tell potential buyers whatever they want to hear. I have heard the realtor selling the house I live in misrepresent everything about our tenancy from the amount of rent we pay to the amount of time left in our lease.

Try to be home for showings and stay with the realtor while the show the house so that you can correct anything they misrepresent.

The owner can’t evict you for messing up their sale if you’re just telling the truth.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

maybe it’s different in BC and these are the examples of comments or attitudes people have to this happening. I guess i'm mostly surprised at people's attitudes, like it’s their home how dare they kick me out of the place i don't own.

Those comments all sound reasonable. What exactly do you find surprising?

If you have a tenancy agreement that agreement transfers to the new owner. Generally if the tenancy is on a month to month renewal, it can be terminated if the new owner intends to move in. With that being said, many owners threaten to sell their unit as a bluff to get renters to accept a proscribed rent increase. Tenants are also not keen to leave their units what with that “housing crisis” you may have heard about, so the process can be drawn out. A buyer should include vacant possession as a condition for any tenanted property so the onus is on the seller to evict the tenant prior to closing.

And yeah, it’s still their home even if they don’t own it.

[SignalHillHiker]

A lot of the nicer rowhouses in working class neighbourhoods are under $250K now, including this one ($239K) below a neighbour's retaining wall of death...





Still nearly $100K more than mine. In my neighbourhood, someone thinks they're still getting over $400K

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by theman23

Those comments all sound reasonable. What exactly do you find surprising?

If you have a tenancy agreement that agreement transfers to the new owner. Generally if the tenancy is on a month to month renewal, it can be terminated if the new owner intends to move in. With that being said, many owners threaten to sell their unit as a bluff to get renters to accept a proscribed rent increase. Tenants are also not keen to leave their units what with that “housing crisis” you may have heard about, so the process can be drawn out. A buyer should include vacant possession as a condition for any tenanted property so the onus is on the seller to evict the tenant prior to closing.

And yeah, it’s still their home even if they don’t own it.

Yes. Even those who are pro ownership don't think you should be able to kick people out for no reason so we all agree tenants have some claim to property the question is just how much.

It's very much buyer beware buying a tenanted property.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by theman23

Those comments all sound reasonable. What exactly do you find surprising?

If you have a tenancy agreement that agreement transfers to the new owner. Generally if the tenancy is on a month to month renewal, it can be terminated if the new owner intends to move in. With that being said, many owners threaten to sell their unit as a bluff to get renters to accept a proscribed rent increase. Tenants are also not keen to leave their units what with that “housing crisis” you may have heard about, so the process can be drawn out. A buyer should include vacant possession as a condition for any tenanted property so the onus is on the seller to evict the tenant prior to closing.

And yeah, it’s still their home even if they don’t own it.

There is a lot of misinformation in the tenant-landlord world in Ontario too.

Sooo many landlords threaten sale as a method to kick a tenant out - but a sale does not give them permission to do that. To actually kick a tenant out you need a buyer to agree to a conditional sale then issue an intent to occupy the unit themselves. Then the tenant can appeal to the LTB.. it's a terrible process.

If you are an end buyer, I would always advise against buying a tenanted property. A tenant which knows there rights can be hell to get out. Even if you have a vacant possession clause, if the tenant doesn't want to leave, it can delay closing and cause big problems for you as the buyer.

I also always hear stories of people who think they have to resign a new lease every year.. that one is shockingly common too.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

There is a lot of misinformation in the tenant-landlord world in Ontario too.

Sooo many landlords threaten sale as a method to kick a tenant out - but a sale does not give them permission to do that. To actually kick a tenant out you need a buyer to agree to a conditional sale then issue an intent to occupy the unit themselves. Then the tenant can appeal to the LTB.. it's a terrible process.

If you are an end buyer, I would always advise against buying a tenanted property. A tenant which knows there rights can be hell to get out. Even if you have a vacant possession clause, if the tenant doesn't want to leave, it can delay closing and cause big problems for you as the buyer.

I also always hear stories of people who think they have to resign a new lease every year.. that one is shockingly common too.

Yes people have this tendency to just assume things work how they think they should. "It's my place I can kick someone out when I want". Shocking some people buy investment properties without knowing a lick about the local law.

[Nite]

Canada’s average rents just saw their biggest drop in 3 years

Rent growth has stalled overall in recent months in Canada, with some of the country’s most expensive cities seeing annual declines in asking rents while other rental markets continue to see prices soar.


The latest rent report from Urbanation and rentals.ca for June shows the average asking rents across all property types fell 0.8 per cent from May, down to an average of $2,185.

The report noted this was the biggest month-to-month decline in rents since early 2021 — amid the COVID-19 pandemic — and marks a reversal of seasonal trends that usually see rents rising this time of year.

June’s annual increase of seven per cent is also the slowest yearly growth rate in rents in the past 13 months, according to rentals.ca and Urbanation’s tracking.

Recent months have shown a general cooling in the rental market, a marked contrast from the past few years of soaring rent tied to growing competition for units and a general lack of supply.

https://globalnews.ca/news/10612800/...nts-june-2024/

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

maybe its different in BC and these are the examples of comments or attitudes people have to this happening. I guess i'm mostly surprised at people's attitudes, like its their home how dare they kick me out of the place i don't own.

If you rented in a purpose built rental building and the landlord sold it you couldn’t be turfed. Same rule if you rent a basement.

[whatnext]

Here’s one big reason why you can’t afford a house kids. From a major media outlet today , so haters read it and weep:

Vancouver’s high-end condos hit by China’s downturn
Douglas Todd: Scores of high-end condos are flying onto the market throughout Metro Vancouver, and China's housing bust is one reason behind it
Author of the article: Douglas Todd
Published Jul 11, 2024

The signs of distress are everywhere. Many of Vancouver’s priciest condos are being offered at big discounts.

One downtown condo that was bought for almost $3 million is now on the market at $2.3 million. At the elite, funky Alberni, designed by starchitect Kengo Kuma, an “extremely high” inventory of 26 condos is for sale, says realtor David Hutchinson. The curving tower hasn’t had a buyer for three months.

At the similarly over-the-top Hotel Georgia, 14 units are listed. The 48th-floor penthouse was once put on sale at $35.8 million, now it’s going for $20.8 million. In the neo-futurist Vancouver House, where Hutchinson says even storage lockers have sold for $150,000, more than 30 opulent apartments are up for grabs. There have only been three sales in six months, and those are smaller units going at about 10 per cent below list price.…

….Westbank, Michael Braun, said: “China is now a big part of this business … right now I have a rule when we talk about projects: If the Chinese market doesn’t want it, I have no interest in it.”

Canadian condo specialist Jordan Scrinko has estimated that, at the peak of Chinese overseas buying, one third of property investments in Vancouver were made by people from China, with a similar figure for Toronto.…

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/col...hinas-downturn

And before anyone says “that’s just Vancouver and Toronto”, where do you think buyers priced out of those two cities went? Psst, Kelowna, Calgary, Halifax thus bumping up prices there.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by whatnext

If you rented in a purpose built rental building and the landlord sold it you couldn’t be turfed. Same rule if you rent a basement.

I believe a basement can still be evicted for “own use”. The owner can claim they want to expand their living space and take over the basement area as a single unit.

Of course they have to actually do that and not just rent it out again…

[niwell]

I know people who have purchased multi-unit houses with tenants still in them, however they were fine keeping existing rents and just living in the primary unit so it's worked out. They'll do some work and bring up the rent to help fund the renovations as people naturally leave. Also budgeted on being able to afford the place untenanted, which helps.

Generally speaking if you have ideas of increasing the rent or taking over the space it's a bad idea. Too many people purchase with zero clue about Landlord/Tenant law and think they can just kick people out - which is the best way of ending up with tenants that pay nothing for 6 months while you navigate the process. And I mean, not much sympathy from me for those situations.

I've been on the tenant end of a sale and did just leave, however I was already in the process of looking before the sale and this was before it was very difficult to get affordable apartments. If I were in the same situation today I'd keep paying rent but absolutely demand compensation in finding something. Our neighbours were able to get $20k when the place was bought by a corporation to convert from 3 to 5 units, though given how long they lived there it still wasn't exactly an amazing deal for them.

[casper]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Here’s one big reason why you can’t afford a house kids. From a major media outlet today , so haters read it and weep:

Vancouver’s high-end condos hit by China’s downturn
Douglas Todd: Scores of high-end condos are flying onto the market throughout Metro Vancouver, and China's housing bust is one reason behind it
Author of the article: Douglas Todd
Published Jul 11, 2024

The signs of distress are everywhere. Many of Vancouver’s priciest condos are being offered at big discounts.

One downtown condo that was bought for almost $3 million is now on the market at $2.3 million. At the elite, funky Alberni, designed by starchitect Kengo Kuma, an “extremely high” inventory of 26 condos is for sale, says realtor David Hutchinson. The curving tower hasn’t had a buyer for three months.

At the similarly over-the-top Hotel Georgia, 14 units are listed. The 48th-floor penthouse was once put on sale at $35.8 million, now it’s going for $20.8 million. In the neo-futurist Vancouver House, where Hutchinson says even storage lockers have sold for $150,000, more than 30 opulent apartments are up for grabs. There have only been three sales in six months, and those are smaller units going at about 10 per cent below list price.…

….Westbank, Michael Braun, said: “China is now a big part of this business … right now I have a rule when we talk about projects: If the Chinese market doesn’t want it, I have no interest in it.”

Canadian condo specialist Jordan Scrinko has estimated that, at the peak of Chinese overseas buying, one third of property investments in Vancouver were made by people from China, with a similar figure for Toronto.…

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/col...hinas-downturn

And before anyone says “that’s just Vancouver and Toronto”, where do you think buyers priced out of those two cities went? Psst, Kelowna, Calgary, Halifax thus bumping up prices there.

Hard to be sympathetic for someone that buys a $3M condo and then flips it for $2.3M.

The poor guy that purchased a penthouse for $40M and is now selling it for $20.8 M. Maybe he over paid?

There are stories out of Toronto where more modestly priced condos are going down in value. Perhaps the federal government housing policy is starting to kick in and its helping prices moderate.

Interesting quote from the developers on how important the China market use to be. Feds has put in rules to try to reverse that. So maybe it is working.

[Build.It]

Originally Posted by casper

There are stories out of Toronto where more modestly priced condos are going down in value. Perhaps the federal government housing policy is starting to kick in and its helping prices moderate.

And which policies would that be?

The reality is that interest rates are outpricing buyers, and people are getting fucked at renewal so many are selling because they have to.

That is why prices are coming down.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by casper

Hard to be sympathetic for someone that buys a $3M condo and then flips it for $2.3M.

The poor guy that purchased a penthouse for $40M and is now selling it for $20.8 M. Maybe he over paid?

There are stories out of Toronto where more modestly priced condos are going down in value. Perhaps the federal government housing policy is starting to kick in and its helping prices moderate.

Interesting quote from the developers on how important the China market use to be. Feds has put in rules to try to reverse that. So maybe it is working.

As far as I know that penthouse at Hotel Georgia residences was never
sold! A perfect illustration of how Vancouver developers built for a non-local market. I keep meaning to start a thread in the Vancouver forum called “Beautiful empty penthouses of Vancouver”.

[Build.It]

Ontario town will return federal housing money after vote against density

On Wednesday, Housing Minister Sean Fraser said the federal government was terminating its deal with the Town of Oakville, Ont., after the town council and Mayor Rob Burton rejected a motion that would allow more dense forms of housing, such as fourplexes and student housing, to be built.

On Thursday, a spokesperson for the mayor’s office told Global News that the town would be returning the money.

“The Town is returning the money and is awaiting instructions from CMHC (Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation) on how to proceed,” Jorge Gomez in the mayor’s office said.

Gomez added that the amount to be returned was “approximately $1.28 million.”

Under the federal government’s Housing Accelerator Fund, Oakville received $1.28 million, which was to be part of a larger sum of $25 million that it would receive over time. This was done after the town council on Jan. 22 agreed to make zoning changes to become compliant with federal requirements.

https://www.globalnews.ca/news/10534...ing-money/amp/

[Nite]

Toronto apartment rents are now the cheapest they've been in almost two years

The average Toronto rental cost slid to a 22-month low in June, some welcome news for prospective renters amid a spiralling cost of living situation in Canada's largest and second-most expensive city.

June figures from Urbanation and Rentals.ca reveal declines in average Toronto rental prices on both a monthly and annual basis, falling to the lowest point in almost two years.

https://www.blogto.com/real-estate-t...nto-june-2024/

[Nite]

Originally Posted by Build.It

And which policies would that be?

The reality is that interest rates are outpricing buyers, and people are getting fucked at renewal so many are selling because they have to.

That is why prices are coming down.

In this case, since Canadian interest rate doesn't affect foreign sources of financing. the federal government ban on foreign buyers has stop non-Canadian citizens or PR from buying residential property in Canada.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Nite

In this case, since Canadian interest rate doesn't affect foreign sources of financing. the federal government ban on foreign buyers has stop non-Canadian citizens or PR from buying residential property in Canada.

The ban on foreign ownership is strictly a political move as it exempts students. All someone has to do is enroll in a class, regardless of your age, and you can buy as many homes as you like. You can also get any of your relatives or friends to buy the property for you and then "gift" it back to you. It's got more holes than Swiss Cheese.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The ban on foreign ownership is strictly a political move as it exempts students. All someone has to do is enroll in a class, regardless of your age, and you can buy as many homes as you like. You can also get any of your relatives or friends to buy the property for you and then "gift" it back to you. It's got more holes than Swiss Cheese.

Not quit, you are omitting that you have to live and work in Canada for the past 5 years and the property can't be more than $500,000.
These are the rules for temporary student buying property in Canada


https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/professi...-canadians-act

You can read the all the exceptions in the link i provided and they are all reasonable and fulfil the goal of banning foreign buyers from speculation on Canadian properties.
I am curious what exception you think is full of holes ?