Atlantic Canadian Politics Thread

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Bishop2047

If the Libs ever want to gain any permanent traction with the anglophones in the province (the majority of the province) they will have to kick the SANB pandering. Otherwise they will resign themselves to "the party that we elect when we need a brief break from the Cons". Gallant and Graham were brutal and did so little of value. They really hurt the liberal brand. Like him or not at least Higgs stopped changed the financial hemorrhage narrative as promised (we can argue about methods).

Honestly I believe that if the cons were running anyone else they would be well on their way to another win but Higgs sticking around will make things more interesting.

I think the question is how do Anglo New Brunswickers find ways to get at excesses, inefficiencies, and failures of bilingualism without coming off as anti Francophone.

If Bernard Lord, the great bilingual PC hope, made major moves to reduce the healthcare authorities from 5-6 to 2, Holt should look at reducing it to one, and finding ways to increase anglophone employment in government jobs, or the hot button issues like EMTs. Holt should also take a look at bilingual reforms in the public school system, like the ones Higgs faced great opposition over.

Even here in Saint John, which is dramatically anglophone compared to basically everywhere to the North of us, and especially compared to Fredericton and Moncton,, being bilingual is way too important in terms of finding jobs, jobs that don’t really need to be bilingual, but gives people an unfair advantage simply for being lucky enough to have been born to a Francophone parents, or born to parents smart enough to send them to French Immersion or Francophone schools. Currently, Anglophone parents cannot send their children to French school, but children of One Anglophone parent and one English as a second language parent can be enrolled in the Francophone school system.

New Brunswick has a worse French Immersion school system than pretty much every other Anglophone province in the country. Yet, when Higgs actually introduced the one smart idea he’s ever had regarding education: bilingual schools, parents with kids in the current french immersion school system made a gigantic fuss about the resulting system being worse, even though it would have been the most dramatic shift in increasing levels of bilingualism since Louis Robichaud made NB an officially bilingual province.

I understand the resulting bilingual school system would have been possibly watered down compared to the current French immersion system… but the result would have undoubtedly been a far greater level of French proficiency among every public high school graduate in the province. This would have actually made French usage and ability far greater, province wide, and eventually raised levels of French proficiency on average among Anglophone high school graduates… and with all the language resources available outside of the public school system, I think we’d honesty have far more Anglophone speakers in NB 10-20 years from now.

I think Higgs is a machiavellian ass, and I think most of the social issues he cares about are divisive garbage, but his idea for bilingual schools was actually good, and completely fitting for Canada’s lone bilingual province. Quite frankly, I think it exposed the SANB and other public interests groups for who they really are… not people who care about the health of the French language within the province of NB, but people who care about maintaining a society divide between Francophones and Anglophones.

It’s asinine there was such vitriolic opposition to their bilingual school strategy. It may have been worse than the current French immersion system at fist, but over the coming decades, it would have ensured far more New Brunswickers had decent levels of bilingualism. As we all know, Francophones with moderate English skills have far greater career opportunities within government than Anglophones with just below the government standard to be considered fully bilingual.

If Blaine Higgs had any balls, he would have pushed the issue and went through with his proposed reforms for the public education system… instead, just like Trudeau folded like a cheap tent over electoral reform, Higgs folded on his proposal to introduce a bilingual school system to replace the English and French immersion school systems. SANB, some (not all) Francophones, and some angry parents with kids in French Immersion opposed this ideas, without thinking about the big picture. Higgs’s idea suck for the most part, but not his bilingual schools idea, that idea was bloody brilliant, and if Holt was smart, she’d revisit that idea… as she won’t face the same opposition from the SANB due to the colour of her party and her near perfect command of the French language.

How NB the only officially bilingual province in Canada doesn’t have bilingual schools while Montreal does… is truly perplexing. While, NB having poorer French Immersion schools system than Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and BC… is nothing short of pathetic. Higgs shoulda got a kudos from the SANB for his bilingual school idea, and they shoulda supported it and offered assistance and making it work, but instead, they made it all about politics and somehow made it out to be Higgs and the PCs being anti Francophone. I think it’s abundantly clear that the SANB doesn’t want more Anglo New Brunswickers to become bilingual… they prefer the current system where Francophone New Brunswickers have a linguistic advantage in the employment market, since very few Francophone New Brunswickers are not bilingual, while very few Anglophone New Brunswickers are bilingual.

Higgs might be a giant turd collector, but he at least had one golden nugget of an issue that could have left him a legacy to be proud of, truly a shame he refused to expend his political capital on it… he should have went through with the bilingual schools idea… 20 years from now, the province would be thanking him.

Edit: just to be clear… a bilingual school system to replace the current anglophone public school system… the French system would be unchanged.

[sailor734]

Nearly 60 years after Equal Opportunity (1967) and NB becoming officially bilingual (1969) the linguistic divide in NB is still deep and wide.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Nearly 60 years after Equal Opportunity (1967) and NB becoming officially bilingual (1969) the linguistic divide in NB is still deep and wide.

Were you opposed to Higgs’s idea to introduce bilingual schools? I certainly wasn’t… I don’t really get why some people were so opposed to the idea, when it would have greatly increased levels of French proficiency among the Anglophone population of NB. Higgs shoulda stuck to his guns and went with it.

Makes me question if he really wanted to implement a bilingual public school system, or if he correctly predicted there would be public outcry against the idea, and that he’d be able to use that opposition to keep the status quo. When it comes to Higgs, I wouldn’t put anything past him.

[adamuptownsj]

Candidate update:

PCs have 30 candidates including all incumbents running for election (Glen Savoie was the last to do so, IIRC). Notably, zero on the north shore yet.

Liberals have 40, also including all incumbents running. Biggest gap is in Anglo metro Moncton, surprisingly.

Greens have 26, including all three incumbents. None in Miramichi or the Upper River Valley.

PA has 6 candidates, 4 of those in the Fredericton/York County area. The NDP have 11 scattered around. No independents yet on the ballot.

Only one riding, Fredericton-York, has nominees from all five parties.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I think the question is how do Anglo New Brunswickers find ways to get at excesses, inefficiencies, and failures of bilingualism without coming off as anti Francophone.

If Bernard Lord, the great bilingual PC hope, made major moves to reduce the healthcare authorities from 5-6 to 2, Holt should look at reducing it to one, and finding ways to increase anglophone employment in government jobs, or the hot button issues like EMTs. Holt should also take a look at bilingual reforms in the public school system, like the ones Higgs faced great opposition over.

Even here in Saint John, which is dramatically anglophone compared to basically everywhere to the North of us, and especially compared to Fredericton and Moncton,, being bilingual is way too important in terms of finding jobs, jobs that don’t really need to be bilingual, but gives people an unfair advantage simply for being lucky enough to have been born to a Francophone parents, or born to parents smart enough to send them to French Immersion or Francophone schools. Currently, Anglophone parents cannot send their children to French school, but children of One Anglophone parent and one English as a second language parent can be enrolled in the Francophone school system.

New Brunswick has a worse French Immersion school system than pretty much every other Anglophone province in the country. Yet, when Higgs actually introduced the one smart idea he’s ever had regarding education: bilingual schools, parents with kids in the current bilingual school system made a gigantic fuss about the resulting system being worse, even though it would have been the most dramatic shift in increasing levels of bilingualism since Louis Robichaud made NB an officially bilingual province.

I understand the resulting bilingual school system would have been possibly watered down compared to the current French immersion system… but the result would have undoubtedly been a far greater level of French proficiency among every public high school graduate in the province. This would have actually made French usage and ability far greater, province wide, and eventually raised levels of French proficiency on average among Anglophone high school graduates… and with all the language resources available outside of the public school system, I think we’d honesty have far more Anglophone speakers in NB 10-20 years from now.

I think Higgs is a machiavellian ass, and I think most of the social issues he cares about are divisive garbage, but his idea for bilingual schools was actually good, and completely fitting for Canada’s lone bilingual province. Quite frankly, I think it exposed the SANB and other public interests groups for who they really are… not people who care about the health of the French language within the province of NB, but people who care about maintaining a society divide between Francophones and Anglophones.

It’s asinine there was such vitriolic opposition to their bilingual school strategy. It may have been worse than the current French immersion system at fist, but over the coming decades, it would have ensured far more New Brunswickers had decent levels of bilingualism. As we all know, Francophones with moderate English skills have far greater career opportunities within government than Anglophones with just below the government standard to be considered fully bilingual.

If Blaine Higgs had any balls, he would have pushed the issue and went through with his proposed reforms for the public education system… instead, just like Trudeau folded like a cheap tent over electoral reform, Higgs folded on his proposal to introduce a bilingual school system to replace the English and French immersion school systems. SANB, some (not all) Francophones, and some angry parents with kids in French Immersion opposed this ideas, without thinking about the big picture. Higgs’s idea suck for the most part, but not his bilingual schools idea, that idea was bloody brilliant, and if Holt was smart, she’d revisit that idea… as she won’t face the same opposition from the SANB due to the colour of her party and her near perfect command of the French language.

How NB the only officially bilingual province in Canada doesn’t have bilingual schools while Montreal does… is truly perplexing. While, NB having poorer French Immersion schools system than Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and BC… is nothing short of pathetic. Higgs shoulda got a kudos from the SANB for his bilingual school idea, and they shoulda supported it and offered assistance and making it work, but instead, they made it all about politics and somehow made it out to be Higgs and the PCs being anti Francophone. I think it’s abundantly clear that the SANB doesn’t want more Anglo New Brunswickers to become bilingual… they prefer the current system where Francophone New Brunswickers have a linguistic advantage in the employment market, since very few Francophone New Brunswickers are not bilingual, while very few Anglophone New Brunswickers are bilingual.

Higgs might be a giant turd collector, but he at least had one golden nugget of an issue that could have left him a legacy to be proud of, truly a shame he refused to expend his political capital on it… he should have went through with the bilingual schools idea… 20 years from now, the province would be thanking him.

A single unified bilingual school system would violate Section 23 of the Constitution that guarantees linguistic minorities their own distinct schools teaching in their own language, and which would probably be one of the hardest constitutional provisions to change.

Good luck in trying to get an exemption from that for the only bilingual province in the country.

[Sunnybrae]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A single unified bilingual school system would violate Section 23 of the Constitution that guarantees linguistic minorities their own distinct schools teaching in their own language, and which would probably be one of the hardest constitutional provisions to change.

Good luck in trying to get an exemption from that for the only bilingual province in the country.

Bilingual province is irrelevant. Section 23 applies to the entire country and in my opinion, totally anti bilingual. Rather ironic considering it was the same man that advocated for both section 23 and bilingualism in Canada.

[sailor734]

I agree that section 23 would seem to promote divisiveness rather than unity.
It can't be that hard to graduate functionally bilingual 18 year olds. They seem to manage with some regularity in much of Europe.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I agree that section 23 would seem to promote divisiveness rather than unity.
It can't be that hard to graduate functionally bilingual 18 year olds. They seem to manage with some regularity in much of Europe.

Motivation is greater in Europe.

There are roughly equivalent numbers of English, French, Italian and German speakers in Europe (with Spanish not far behind). This promotes not only bilingualism, but multilingualism.

In North America, there is a small island of 10M French speakers surrounded by an ocean of 360M English speakers. The playing field is not level.............

[Bishop2047]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I agree that section 23 would seem to promote divisiveness rather than unity.
It can't be that hard to graduate functionally bilingual 18 year olds. They seem to manage with some regularity in much of Europe.

Sadly you are correct and many of the langues rulings/laws are not geared toward unity and inclusion, but rather to selectively benefit certain populations. The Constitutionally supported segregation of school systems is ridiculous, and reduces the actual number of potentially bilingual graduates IMO. It does however benefit those who are represented by "certain lobbying groups", and thus will likely continue.

The paramedic language requirements are a great example of this. Currently every ambulance is staffed with two full-time paramedic positions. One can be uniligual and the other is reserved for a bilingual medic. In many places (disproportionately in the North) these positions go unfilled for years and thus services are reduced. Sadly "certain lobbying groups" will not acknowledge that this issue was of their own making as the solution would benefit all NB residents, rather than their own interests.

It's less of a language issue and more of an Acadian cultural preservation issues, discussed as a language issue.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A single unified bilingual school system would violate Section 23 of the Constitution that guarantees linguistic minorities their own distinct schools teaching in their own language, and which would probably be one of the hardest constitutional provisions to change.

Good luck in trying to get an exemption from that for the only bilingual province in the country.

That’s not what Higgs suggested, nor what I’m calling a good idea. Higgs idea was to turn the Anglophone public school system bilingual, not get rid of the French school system.

Higgs idea would have boosted French proficiency among Anglophones, and would have been an overall positive change for the province into the future, yet it was made out to be like he was just trying to water down French immersion.

Instead of the SANB and other groups coming up with suggestions and solutions to make the bilingual school system work for Anglophones NBers, they played identity politics and screamed bloody murder… even though Higgs’s idea would have been the single biggest step forward to raising levels of bilingualism among Anglophone New Brunswickers in the history of the province.

Higgs should have went through with it. I’m cynical enough about Higgs and his PCs to believe that the real reason it didn’t get pushed through, is that it was probably unpopular among a lot of their far right base who don’t see the need in their kids learning French.

[Bishop2047]

SANB is not in the business of actually increasing the levels of French speakers in the provision. They only advocate for language legislation in so much as it benefits the traditional Acadian population. It would not benefit the Acadian population to have more actual bilingual NBers, it is to their advantage to keep this pool small and familial as much as possible.

A shame really. A true French Language lobby would do NB a true service but SANB is not it.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Bishop2047

SANB is not in the business of actually increasing the levels of French speakers in the provision. They only advocate for language legislation in so much as it benefits the traditional Acadian population. It would not benefit the Acadian population to have more actual bilingual NBers, it is to their advantage to keep this pool small and familial as much as possible.

A shame really. A true French Language lobby would do NB a true service but SANB is not it.

Yet, they and others successfully turned Blaine Higgs’s proposed bilingual school idea into something that was anti French. I think Blaine Higgs painfully full of crap on most issues, but his idea for bilingual schools for Anglophone students was a good one… a broken clock is still right twice a day right? It was one of his very few good idea, but he didn’t have the balls to stick with it… and again, I wouldn’t be surprised if the real reason he gave it it was it’s unpopularity with his far right base.

It’s so blatantly obvious that SANB and many others do not want more Anglophones learning French. In theory, a lot more people in NB would be bilingual 20-30 years from now if this idea for a bilingual school system became a reality. There will be so many more people gaining a basic knowledge of French from the public school system, and online language learning resources that will only keep improving into the future…. 50% levels of bilingualism or more would not be out of the question if we had a legit bilingual school system.

SANB and parents fighting to keep French Immersion alive while NB has a worse French Immersion program than basically any other province in Canada was just sad… especially considering NB is the only bilingual province in the country.

Higgs let the entire province down by giving up so quickly on one of his very few good ideas.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Sunnybrae

Bilingual province is irrelevant. Section 23 applies to the entire country and in my opinion,.

This is correct. The only reason I brought up New Brunswick is because of the symbolism of New Brunswick go against Section 23. (If that's indeed what they did.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Bishop2047

The paramedic language requirements are a great example of this. Currently every ambulance is staffed with two full-time paramedic positions. One can be uniligual and the other is reserved for a bilingual medic. In many places (disproportionately in the North) these positions go unfilled for years and thus services are reduced. .

I strongly doubt that the bilingual requirements are why parademic positions in the north are going unfilled, given that it's the most bilingual region of the province (along with the SE around Moncton).

I'd always heard that the bilingual requirements created more of a staffing issue in the southwest in places like Nackawic and Minto, where way fewer people are bilingual.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

That’s not what Higgs suggested, nor what I’m calling a good idea. Higgs idea was to turn the Anglophone public school system bilingual, not get rid of the French school system.

Higgs idea would have boosted French proficiency among Anglophones, and would have been an overall positive change for the province into the future, yet it was made out to be like he was just trying to water down French immersion.

Instead of the SANB and other groups coming up with suggestions and solutions to make the bilingual school system work for Anglophones NBers, they played identity politics and screamed bloody murder… even though Higgs’s idea would have been the single biggest step forward to raising levels of bilingualism among Anglophone New Brunswickers in the history of the province.

Higgs should have went through with it. I’m cynical enough about Higgs and his PCs to believe that the real reason it didn’t get pushed through, is that it was probably unpopular among a lot of their far right base who don’t see the need in their kids learning French.

I don't know about the SANB specifically but about half my extended family are NB Acadiens from the north - many of them highly politicized.

I've literally never heard any of them say that they don't want NB Anglos to learn more French because it will take away an employment advantage many Acadiens have. Indeed, some of my relatives have very shaky English in fact.

If they complain about anglophones and language it's generally about so few of them being able to speak French.

That said, anglophone New Brunswickers under Section 23 and other laws are free to manage their schools as they wish, and I somehow doubt the SANB even if they wanted to try, have much sway with the Higgs government.

So if the bilingual schools idea was scrapped it's because of a large part of Higgs' own constituency that thinks there is probably too much French in anglophone schools as it is.

Don't blame Acadiens (or even the SANB) for this.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't know about the SANB specifically but about half my extended family are NB Acadiens from the north - many of them highly politicized.

I've literally never heard any of them say that they don't want NB Anglos to learn more French because it will take away an employment advantage many Acadiens have. Indeed, some of my relatives have very shaky English in fact.

If they complain about anglophones and language it's generally about so few of them being able to speak French.

That said, anglophone New Brunswickers under Section 23 and other laws are free to manage their schools as they wish, and I somehow doubt the SANB even if they wanted to try, have much sway with the Higgs government.

So if the bilingual schools idea was scrapped it's because of a large part of Higgs' own constituency that thinks there is probably too much French in anglophone schools as it is.

Don't blame Acadiens (or even the SANB) for this.

Iirc, SANB came out against the proposal for bilingual schools, and said to not get rid of French immersion. I’d say you’re right tho, he didn’t go through with it because his base doesn’t want their kids learning French… which is painfully stupid.

[adamuptownsj]

Indeed, some of my relatives have very shaky English in fact.

If they complain about anglophones and language it's generally about so few of them being able to speak French.

This is a funny pair of statements together.

Anyway, the rational argument against expanded school bilingualism is, a lower percentage of New Brunswickers speak French every census, and if you don't want to work in the provincial or federal government, it offers little tangible benefit. I am, per the province, fluently bilingual. 7 years in French Immersion in the 2000s and I've kept it up since. I've had to use it less than once a year, I'd guess. Most English-speaking New Brunswickers rarely encounter French in a professional or personal context. Geography seems to cause this more than anything, as outside of east Moncton and government workers in Fredericton, there aren't many truly bilingual communities. The English population of the North Shore broadly departed out of province or to the south in the 20th century, and there's thousands of by now fully Anglicized Acadians who did the same. A French speaker in Caraquet can live his entire life in French without difficulty; as can an English speaker in Woodstock. We're a province with two languages, not a bilingual province. More Belgium than anything.

Outside of the province, Quebecois switch to English or stare blankly if they hear an English accent. It's weird to have spent middle and high school learning a language I have no occasion to speak regularly.

Is learning a second language good? Yeah. Is it useful to implement full bilingual education when we can barely get students literate in one language? Probably not. NB seems to have an ineffectual education reform at least once a decade, and tweaks French program delivery even more often.

I don't regret learning French, but the salience of bilingualism seems to decline year over year as both the total and percentage of the province being French speakers in the North Shore/Madawaska/Kent declines. By the next boundary redistribution, it will be impossible for everything from Grand Falls to Shippagan to support 11 ridings, and could be as low as 9 (with Moncton gaining accordingly). That's only 18% of the seats in the province, and I can only assume they represent like 12% of the economy and even less of the under-40 population.

Lastly, it's a little overblown to blame rural and suburban Anglo parents when the constitution would have to be changed to do this. Few governments will risk a constitutional fight over an issue neither their most vociferous opposition, their supporters, or the law itself are overly amenable to.

TL;DR between immigration, intraprovincial migration, Acadian demographic decline, and geographic separation, French is in a pickle. Learning it doesn't seem to have deep benefits to most students who do so. The status quo seems acceptable across the political spectrum.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

it's a little overblown to blame rural and suburban Anglo parents when the constitution would have to be changed to do this. Few governments will risk a constitutional fight over an issue neither their most vociferous opposition, their supporters, or the law itself are overly amenable to.

Higgs never suggested a bilingual school system to replace the French and English school systems, he suggested a bilingual school system to replace the current English public school system only. The former would require constitutional change, the latter would not.

There’s no one to blame for not following through with it other than Higgs and the ruling PC party. I contend that bilingual schools for Anglophone students instead of French Immersion was one of the few good ideas Higgs ever had as premier, an idea if implemented would have had a long term impact on levels of bilingualism in the only province in Canada where English and French are official languages.

The biggest opposition on the surface seemed to be among parents with children already in the French Immersion system, but I think the real reason they didn’t follow through with it is that French language learning is not popular with their base, so they didn’t bother spending their political capital pursuing it.

Bilingualism is useful in many job applications beyond government jobs, and it’s often listed as an asset on job postings here in almost entirely Anglophone Saint John. The reality, though, is that being bilingual is mainly useful for job applications, and not actually useful for the jobs themselves.

[CharlotteCountyLogan]

In some local news the PCs have nominated a candidate in Fundy the Isles Saint John West. The nominee is a local high school teacher who serves on the fire department and has a impressive educational background.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

This is a funny pair of statements together.

Not really. Even with their shaky English they are still way more bilingual than 90-95% of anglophones in New Brunswick.

At least they try.