Burrard Inlet Rapid Transit - Park Royal-Metrotown via 2nd Narrows | BRT/RRT?

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Yes, but no. The Federal funding contribution for the Ontario, Eglinton, Younge North and Scarborough lines is $10.4 bn, so they aren't paying up as much for some more expensive projects. On the other hand the $3.4bn Hamilton LRT they're covering 50%, with the province the other half.

You'd have to create a spreadsheet of Federal funding on transit over time by Province to see how 'fair' any allocations have been.

Obviously we don't have an existing network of non-electric trains to electrify like GO, so some expenditure is going to be legitimately more, where the goal is carbon reduction and lower cost operations.

we definitely get the short end of the stick. from direct funding, to equalization. youd have to include all of our payments to the east in equalization, as a negative to federal funding to the west. even if they stopped stealing out money to send east, we would be able to afford more infrastructure.

but not only do they steal from us, they also deny us the same level of funding.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

we definitely get the short end of the stick. from direct funding, to equalization. youd have to include all of our payments to the east in equalization, as a negative to federal funding to the west. even if they stopped stealing out money to send east, we would be able to afford more infrastructure.

but not only do they steal from us, they also deny us the same level of funding.

Equalization is an entirely different financial program to federal funding for transportation, so it's hardly relevant to a thread about trasit to the North Shore. You do know that BC doesn't make any actual payments for equalization, and that Ontario barely receives any money under equalization? "Provincial governments make no contributions to the Equalization program. All Canadians are subject to the same federal income tax system and its progressive rate structure, regardless of where they live."

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Equalization is an entirely different financial program to federal funding for transportation, so it's hardly relevant to a thread about trasit to the North Shore. You do know that BC doesn't make any actual payments for equalization, and that Ontario barely receives any money under equalization? "Provincial governments make no contributions to the Equalization program. All Canadians are subject to the same federal income tax system and its progressive rate structure, regardless of where they live."

...You do realize that when all provinces are subject to the same federal tax system, and some provinces get equalization payments but BC does not, that literally does mean that BC dollars are being funnelled towards have-not provinces for equalization payments, right? That's called the fungibility of money.

Not making a judgement on the morality of it all, but denying basic facts just breeds discontent.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by chowhou

...You do realize that when all provinces are subject to the same federal tax system, and some provinces get equalization payments but BC does not, that literally does mean that BC dollars are being funnelled towards have-not provinces for equalization payments, right? That's called the fungibility of money.

Not making a judgement on the morality of it all, but denying basic facts just breeds discontent.

Almost everybody pays federal taxes, either income tax or GST. Since 1957 Canada has had a system where some provinces are given some of the federal funds that go into general revenue, and others don't receive anything.

No money is paid by the BC government, or withheld from them, and there is no cheque or direct debit to the federal government to help other provinces, which seems to be how the system was being characterized.

Federal funds allocated for transit are entirely a different story, and I really have no idea whether the larger provinces in the east get more than their fair share, based on population. Certainly larger urban areas which can justify a rail transit system qualify for funds that others don't, but that doesn't seem to be a 'hard done by west' story. Halifax is only a bit smaller than Hamilton, but it's not getting transit funds any time soon.

[chowhou]

I, a British Columbian, pay a dollar to the federal government.

A New Brunswicker pays a dollar to the federal government.

The federal government gives New Brunswick 50c in equalization.

The federal government gives British Columbia nothing in equalization.

New Brunswick got 25c from me.

That should be fairly simple to understand.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I, a British Columbian, pay a dollar to the federal government.

A New Brunswicker pays a dollar to the federal government.

The federal government gives New Brunswick 50c in equalization.

The federal government gives British Columbia nothing in equalization.

New Brunswick got 25c from me.

That should be fairly simple to understand.

That has nothing to do with federal transit funding.

[casper]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I, a British Columbian, pay a dollar to the federal government.

A New Brunswicker pays a dollar to the federal government.

The federal government gives New Brunswick 50c in equalization.

The federal government gives British Columbia nothing in equalization.

New Brunswick got 25c from me.

That should be fairly simple to understand.

It more like you give 25c in tax to the feds. Someone in New Brunswick gives 25c. Shell Canada (and other corporations) gives 25c Various other importing things into the country of living outside of Canada give another 12c. Federal government generates another 12c from other places.

Out of those one dollar, 22c is given out as equalisation. Given only about half of the federal revenue is from personal income tax good luck trying its being taken from people in one region to give to people in another region.

Getting back to transit. Generally its allocated based on population and is used to match projects proposed by the provincial government.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by madog222

That has nothing to do with federal transit funding.

No, but it does affect provincial transit funding when BC does not get any equalization payments.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

....even if they stopped stealing out money to send east, we would be able to afford more infrastructure.

but not only do they steal from us, they also deny us the same level of funding.

You really, really don't understand what "stealing" means.

[BaddieB]

Chowhou, I think based on our other conversation about development fees, is that some people aren't very good at conceptualizing tax burdens.

[Migrant_Coconut]

If anything, it's the territories getting robbed by equalization. Despite paying the same taxes, and being the most underdeveloped part of Canada which would greatly benefit from additional funding, AFAIK they get Nunavut.

Here's the part I don't get though: if Quebec's got the second-highest GDP and higher average wages than Ontario (and only slightly-lower GDP/capita), how come they need 58% of the payments?

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

If anything, it's the territories getting robbed by equalization. Despite paying the same taxes, and being the most underdeveloped part of Canada which would greatly benefit from additional funding, AFAIK they get Nunavut.

Again, not really anything to do with north shore transit.

"The three territorial governments do not receive Equalization. The federal government supports these governments through a separate program - Territorial Formula Financing - an annual unconditional transfer that recognizes the high cost of providing public services in the North"

[Source, and explanation of how equalisation works]

[madog222]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Again, not really anything to do with north shore transit.

As has been pointed out a few times.
This will be the end of that conversation.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

If anything, it's the territories getting robbed by equalization. Despite paying the same taxes, and being the most underdeveloped part of Canada which would greatly benefit from additional funding, AFAIK they get Nunavut.

I don't know what the equalization arrangements are for the Territories, but with a total population of around 40,000 people it doesn't take very much for Nunavut to get the same per capita subsidization as the poorer provinces. Although I guess one could argue whether per capita is a fair way to compare such a sparsely populated area.

[chowhou]

Looks like BIRT is going to be a major election promise this year! BC United is a little bit dead on arrival, but hopefully it gets a little more light as a result of this election promise. Maybe (hopefully) the BCNDP can make their own promise.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/bc-u...emorial-bridge

BC United leader Kevin Falcon promises new North Shore SkyTrain and replacement Second Narrows Bridge

BC United party leader Kevin Falcon announced today sweeping major transportation infrastructure improvements, especially initiatives and projects that benefit the North Shore of Metro Vancouver.

Key to his party’s promises is the construction of a new SkyTrain line reaching the North Shore.

Falcon specifically noted SkyTrain — not TransLink’s current highly vague and undefined planning approach of a potential initial Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) service, with the possibility of some form of rail-based rapid transit at some point in the future over the long term. TransLink is in the process of planning a rapid transit corridor between Park Royal in West Burnaby and Metrotown in Burnaby via the Second Narrows.

BC United is envisioning a phased North Shore SkyTrain line, with the first phase running between the existing SkyTrain network in Burnaby and TransLink’s existing Phibbs bus exchange near the north end of the Ironworkers Memorial Bridge in North Vancouver. A longer-term extension would bring the SkyTrain extension westward across the North Shore to reach Lonsdale and Park Royal.

The new North Shore SkyTrain by BC United would be tied with the project of building a new multi-modal Second Narrows Bridge to provide relief to the aging and constrained 1957-built Ironworkers Memorial Bridge. This new Highway 1 bridge would have 10 vehicle lanes including HOV lanes — up from the existing bridge’s six vehicle lanes — and space for the SkyTrain tracks, and walking and cycling pathways.

Also I promise I'm not involved in influencing any of the political parties w.r.t. a phased construction to Phibbs, it's just a bit of a pragmatic no brainer.

[BaddieB]

I hope the BCNDP one ups them and sends it all the way to Lonsdale in phase one.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

I hope the BCNDP one ups them and sends it all the way to Lonsdale in phase one.

There's not much point building only to Lonsdale. I think it makes the most sense to either long haul it all the way to Park Royal, or phase it at Phibbs. Phasing it to Lonsdale doesn't accomplish much but makes later construction harder methinks.

[BaddieB]

It accomplishes connecting the densest part of the NS with Skytrain. Elevating it along Low Level wouldn't cost that much either, unlike tunneling.

[officedweller]

Going to Phibbs is equivalent to the first Surrey phase stopping at Scott Road to get over the hurdle/bottleneck of the bridge.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Also I promise I'm not involved in influencing any of the political parties w.r.t. a phased construction to Phibbs, it's just a bit of a pragmatic no brainer.

It's interesting that they're considering keeping the old bridge for heavy vehicle traffic. Slow trucks that have problems getting up to speed up the grade is probably a significant cause of delays (trucks barely doing 30-40 km/h)

I think the North Shore Skytrain routing is probably more complicated than the Metrotown-Phibbs section so it might make sense if that speeds up the delivery of the first phase.