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  #8701  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2024, 5:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The trend now seems to be more English and less French everywhere. What you describe was more true 10-20 years ago, when each of the two language groups seemed to be soldifying their bastions. Including French in Québec.

Now English is making inroads in Québec again.
Long after half of them decamped?

Let's see. The Eastern Townships, where my ancestors hail from, are almost bereft of Anglos under 60. Sherbrooke, Drummondville, Granby, Victoriaville, Cowansville, Richmond (among others with names that reflect their English histories) are upwards of 95% francophone.

Only in Montreal (perhaps, a few places in Pontiac?) is there an anglo redoubt. But here, the decline is evident. Heck, even Beaconsfield is only 49% Anglo. Kirkland? 39% Even Westmount is below the magical 50% proportion.
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  #8702  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2024, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Long after half of them decamped?

Let's see. The Eastern Townships, where my ancestors hail from, are almost bereft of Anglos under 60. Sherbrooke, Drummondville, Granby, Victoriaville, Cowansville, Richmond (among others with names that reflect their English histories) are upwards of 95% francophone.

Only in Montreal (perhaps, a few places in Pontiac?) is there an anglo redoubt. But here, the decline is evident. Heck, even Beaconsfield is only 49% Anglo. Kirkland? 39% Even Westmount is below the magical 50% proportion.
Let's revisit this in a few years. Maybe as soon as 5 as opposed to 10!
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  #8703  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2024, 5:57 PM
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  #8704  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2024, 6:00 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
You did not understand and jumped on your high horse.

The US trained and armed the Kagamé insurgency. This is a well established fact. They were quite happy to kick France out of the Great Lakes region. It's not a language issue per se, more a power competition (of which language is just one element, among others).

The US did the same in Lebanon, all too eager to diminish French presence and influence there. They are also active in places like Morocco. Pretending to be allies but at the same time busy tripping their so-called allies (see the Aukus affair more recently).
Language is a pretty important part of soft power, as it relates to important stuff like culture, education, ideas, etc.
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  #8705  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2024, 6:20 PM
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A majority of Québécois are in favor of Québec becoming a bilingual province??
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  #8706  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2024, 6:28 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
A majority of Québécois are in favor of Québec becoming a bilingual province??
I'm not sure it's that clear to people what that exactly involves, and a lot of people probably think that it is already - given the amount of English services and institutions that are available.
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  #8707  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2024, 8:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I need to see the question as it's phrased on the survey. I think it's two separate questions: (1) Do you think English is threatened?, (2) Do you think French is threatened?, and not a single question with a binary choice as to which of the two languages is more threatened.

The 19% of ROC respondents who said that the survival of French is threatened are probably relatively high information people who have some sense of Quebec culture, and feel that French is being threatened by the encroachment of English.

The 22% of ROC respondents who said that the survival of English is threatened are probably low information people with racist tendencies who think that immigrants are taking over. In this case, I doubt they think that English is being taken over by French.
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  #8708  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2024, 8:58 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
I need to see the question as it's phrased on the survey. I think it's two separate questions: (1) Do you think English is threatened?, (2) Do you think French is threatened?, and not a single question with a binary choice as to which of the two languages is more threatened.

The 19% of ROC respondents who said that the survival of French is threatened are probably relatively high information people who have some sense of Quebec culture, and feel that French is being threatened by the encroachment of English.

The 22% of ROC respondents who said that the survival of English is threatened are probably low information people with racist tendencies who think that immigrants are taking over. In this case, I doubt they think that English is being taken over by French.
It would be interesting to dig deeper into the thinking of the 22%. It's a pretty strange view, wherever it's coming from.
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  #8709  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2024, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
I need to see the question as it's phrased on the survey. I think it's two separate questions: (1) Do you think English is threatened?, (2) Do you think French is threatened?, and not a single question with a binary choice as to which of the two languages is more threatened.

The 19% of ROC respondents who said that the survival of French is threatened are probably relatively high information people who have some sense of Quebec culture, and feel that French is being threatened by the encroachment of English.

The 22% of ROC respondents who said that the survival of English is threatened are probably low information people with racist tendencies who think that immigrants are taking over. In this case, I doubt they think that English is being taken over by French.
You are probably right in both assessements.

That said the idea of Canada as a Anglo-American country is under threat. If we bring in a million immigrants a year for 20 years within one generation the racist replacement theory will come true. Given that India is the current source country of choice and even Indians of different linguistic background losing English seems very unlikely. This isn't California where most of the immigrants speak one language. There is no guarantee that new immigrants and their decsendants will have the same vision for Canada. For many of us we might prefer their vision to the one those with four grandparents born in Canada have but that doesn't change the fact it is different.
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  #8710  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2024, 9:54 PM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
You are probably right in both assessements.

That said the idea of Canada as a Anglo-American country is under threat. If we bring in a million immigrants a year for 20 years within one generation the racist replacement theory will come true. Given that India is the current source country of choice and even Indians of different linguistic background losing English seems very unlikely. This isn't California where most of the immigrants speak one language. There is no guarantee that new immigrants and their decsendants will have the same vision for Canada. For many of us we might prefer their vision to the one those with four grandparents born in Canada have but that doesn't change the fact it is different.
It's naive to think that immigration doesn't change the nature of the country or that cultures hold similar values. These become third-rail topics in Canada because we're terrified of sounding racist. It's a valid fear because fellow Canadians will use those claims to shut down any discussion. It's also complicated by the fact that people who are genuinely racist complain about the same problem and will argue that calling out their racist behaviour suppresses free speech.

For the most part, I think we don't know how Canada will change or how immigrants will adapt when immigration rates grow to these levels.
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  #8711  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2024, 11:50 PM
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Compared to European countries, Canada has one big advantage, in that our "host culture" if you want to call it that, is pretty detached from ethnicity (an "Anglo-Canadian ethnicity" arguably doesn't even exist), so it's about a set of values, which is a lot easier to integrate people into. We could have a pretty high per capita immigration rate. 1M per year is definitely way too much, but 250k-350k per year is pretty good. (That's pretty high by developed world standards). Our pre-2015 immigration policy was pretty great. The main issue is that immigrants were arguably too concentrated in the major cities, resulting in a bit of a cultural/social disconnect emerging between the multicultural salads of GTA/Lower Mainland and the regions. 350k per year, with a goal of trying to spread people around to the medium sized cities, would be ideal, I think.

By contrast, in the EU integrating new arrivals essentially means having to assimilate them into an existing ethnocultural sphere, which is much harder. So they're a lot more limited in their ability to accept immigrants without creating a whole slew of problems (as they're finding out now...)
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  #8712  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2024, 1:32 AM
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Originally Posted by dreambrother808 View Post
It's naive to think that immigration doesn't change the nature of the country or that cultures hold similar values. These become third-rail topics in Canada because we're terrified of sounding racist. It's a valid fear because fellow Canadians will use those claims to shut down any discussion. It's also complicated by the fact that people who are genuinely racist complain about the same problem and will argue that calling out their racist behaviour suppresses free speech.

For the most part, I think we don't know how Canada will change or how immigrants will adapt when immigration rates grow to these levels.
Yes tolerance is our core value. Or at least the elite tell us this. I know it's fashionable to say we are just as racist as Americans and while that is kind of ridiculous I think at the core people are just as uncomfortable with differences they just don't express it with open racism. It really has the potential to go badly. The current politics with cities joining Conservative populism tempers a lot of this but we haven't had the election yet.

Quebec has more confidence in their other values that they think are worth protecting so the trade off is different. English Canada's main value is not being American and their current intolerance just makes embracing immigration even more important.
s

Last edited by YOWetal; Jun 26, 2024 at 1:45 AM.
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  #8713  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2024, 4:40 AM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
Yes tolerance is our core value. Or at least the elite tell us this. I know it's fashionable to say we are just as racist as Americans and while that is kind of ridiculous I think at the core people are just as uncomfortable with differences they just don't express it with open racism. It really has the potential to go badly. The current politics with cities joining Conservative populism tempers a lot of this but we haven't had the election yet.

Quebec has more confidence in their other values that they think are worth protecting so the trade off is different. English Canada's main value is not being American and their current intolerance just makes embracing immigration even more important.
s
Attending a conference where the keynote speaker today spoke about diversity , inclusion and racism in Canada. She commented Canada is just as racist as any other Western country; just that we hide it better. In her words, Canada does a very good job of practicing "polite racism". And she reminded the audience that apartheid in South Africa was modeled on the Canadian reserve system.
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  #8714  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2024, 1:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Ozabald View Post
Attending a conference where the keynote speaker today spoke about diversity , inclusion and racism in Canada. She commented Canada is just as racist as any other Western country; just that we hide it better. In her words, Canada does a very good job of practicing "polite racism". And she reminded the audience that apartheid in South Africa was modeled on the Canadian reserve system.
"Polite racism" vs tolerance. Please discuss.
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  #8715  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2024, 2:00 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Long after half of them decamped?

Let's see. The Eastern Townships, where my ancestors hail from, are almost bereft of Anglos under 60. Sherbrooke, Drummondville, Granby, Victoriaville, Cowansville, Richmond (among others with names that reflect their English histories) are upwards of 95% francophone.

Only in Montreal (perhaps, a few places in Pontiac?) is there an anglo redoubt. But here, the decline is evident. Heck, even Beaconsfield is only 49% Anglo. Kirkland? 39% Even Westmount is below the magical 50% proportion.
Westmount is well above the 50% mark.... Beaconsfield and Kirkland are also above 50%.

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...nguage&TABID=1
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  #8716  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2024, 2:06 PM
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Westmount is well above the 50% mark.... Beaconsfield and Kirkland are also above 50%.

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...nguage&TABID=1
My data derived from the 2021 census.

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...dex.cfm?Lang=E

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...note-statcan-1
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  #8717  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2024, 2:07 PM
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Attending a conference where the keynote speaker today spoke about diversity , inclusion and racism in Canada. She commented Canada is just as racist as any other Western country; just that we hide it better. In her words, Canada does a very good job of practicing "polite racism". And she reminded the audience that apartheid in South Africa was modeled on the Canadian reserve system.
She might have a point about polite racism. But she's really saying the quiet part out loud with "just as racist as any other Western country" If we are all the same level of racist really the DEI folks are saying you're racist by being white/western and it doesn't matter what behaviours or policies you have. This is essentially CRT that says racism can be systematic even if policies and people aren't racist which of course is logically impossisble.

I don't know about what or wasn't modelled on the Canadian reserve system. But there is a fundamental difference. Reserves were about protecting some land for Indigenous people to live traditional lifestyles. Sure it was also about making taking over more land for other uses easier but more in the sense we are giving you this land and some benefits in return for giving up this other piece of land rather than South Africa that was saying you can't go in this area. Regardless nobdoy is saying Canada wasn't racist. Or even there is no racism left in Canada. But the idea racism is in the top 5 reasons for someone of color not suceeding in 2024 is laughable. A legacy of racism and poverty being a totally different thing that also exists for other communities.

I also dispute some of the whole polite racism theory. Quebec says things openly that the rest of Canada thinks are racist. English Canada doesn't secretly have all the same views. Quebec is more intolerant of difference. That is clear. Now you can argue a hijab is not about race and intolerance of this does not mean they are racist but if you define these attitudes as racist than Quebec is clearly more racist openly and secretly. Sure some people also don't want their kids teacher to be in a Hijab but I think a survery would clearly show that view is more prevelent in Quebec. ( even an anonymous survey)
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  #8718  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2024, 2:15 PM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
You are probably right in both assessements.

That said the idea of Canada as a Anglo-American country is under threat. If we bring in a million immigrants a year for 20 years within one generation the racist replacement theory will come true. Given that India is the current source country of choice and even Indians of different linguistic background losing English seems very unlikely. This isn't California where most of the immigrants speak one language. There is no guarantee that new immigrants and their decsendants will have the same vision for Canada. For many of us we might prefer their vision to the one those with four grandparents born in Canada have but that doesn't change the fact it is different.
Racism is like pornography: it's hard to define, but you know it when you see it.

Being concerned that values that define Canada may morph into something unrecognizable given a larger-than-average influx of people from one foreign country, sustained over time, is not racist. That will happen, although there are other things happening in parallel to shift values: there are new technologies that shape our culture and how we interact with people, new generations are born and old ones die, etc. Values will shift no matter what. They even shift in ethnically static societies like Korea and Japan.

Saying that being able to be serviced in English in Toronto and Vancouver is under threat because of immigrants is clearly ignorant and, I'd argue, racist. The English language is not threatened anywhere, least of all in the major English speaking cities of the world. For starters, many of the immigrants come from countries where ESL is pretty strong and almost all of them come here with at least conversational English: the Phillippines, India, Pakistan, etc. Second, I doubt many people who think English is under threat actually go into the stores and services where immigrants who don't speak English work. A Vancouverite who genuinely thinks English is being replaced by Chinese is not going to go to a Fujianese restaurant in Richmond. At best, they're dropping off their shirts at a dry cleaners where it's hard to get your point across to the shopkeeper in English. But here, some basic empathy just one level above sociopathy is required: you're dropping off shirts that need to be pressed for your professional job in an air-conditioned office which you could leave at any time, and the poor sap across from you is going to breathe in perchloroethylene fumes in a 40 degree steamhouse. If he could speak better English, maybe he'd be doing something else. The Berlin or, maybe Montreal, situation where the university-educated hipster barrista only serves you in a foreign language (English) doesn't exist in English Canada.
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  #8719  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2024, 3:10 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Racism is like pornography: it's hard to define, but you know it when you see it.

Being concerned that values that define Canada may morph into something unrecognizable given a larger-than-average influx of people from one foreign country, sustained over time, is not racist. That will happen, although there are other things happening in parallel to shift values: there are new technologies that shape our culture and how we interact with people, new generations are born and old ones die, etc. Values will shift no matter what. They even shift in ethnically static societies like Korea and Japan.
Well if you are concerned our culture will become more Indian but not concerned it will become more Ukrainian there is certainly the possiblity you are racist. I think this gets overblown. There are values we define as better and worse. Certainly the middle east, Africa and most of Asia have a lot of values that we find less desireable. But Russia has most or more of these values as well so if you think Russian culture (and a lot of the Ukrainian refugees actually have a lot of these values) are fine but secular Hindu values are problematic well that's probably racist.

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Racism is like pornography: it's hard to define, but you know it when you see it.
Saying that being able to be serviced in English in Toronto and Vancouver is under threat because of immigrants is clearly ignorant and, I'd argue, racist. The English language is not threatened anywhere, least of all in the major English speaking cities of the world. For starters, many of the immigrants come from countries where ESL is pretty strong and almost all of them come here with at least conversational English: the Phillippines, India, Pakistan, etc. Second, I doubt many people who think English is under threat actually go into the stores and services where immigrants who don't speak English work. A Vancouverite who genuinely thinks English is being replaced by Chinese is not going to go to a Fujianese restaurant in Richmond. At best, they're dropping off their shirts at a dry cleaners where it's hard to get your point across to the shopkeeper in English. But here, some basic empathy just one level above sociopathy is required: you're dropping off shirts that need to be pressed for your professional job in an air-conditioned office which you could leave at any time, and the poor sap across from you is going to breathe in perchloroethylene fumes in a 40 degree steamhouse. If he could speak better English, maybe he'd be doing something else. The Berlin or, maybe Montreal, situation where the university-educated hipster barrista only serves you in a foreign language (English) doesn't exist in English Canada.
I don't think the service in English is the main issues. But sure that can be frustrating. That's mostly a commerical thing and for every hard working Indian fake student who can't communicate perfectly they are preferable in many ways to the old surly teenagers who would be on their phone when you stepped to the counter and messed up your order.

Another issue is we may lose our English culture. Singapore has service in English but doesn't produce any culture of note. Speaking and writing at the highest level is lacking. Yes East and South Asians will become native speakers but the family culture generally prioritizes math and science so the quality of writing could suffer in our elite institutions. Granted those complaining mostly aren't worried about any of this and are just annoyed and getting served constantly in broken English.
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  #8720  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2024, 3:53 PM
P'tit Renard P'tit Renard is offline
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Looks like QS is in full French election campaigning mode:



https://x.com/RubaGhazalQS/status/1805646049744195607
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