EVs will only become widely popular when the infrastructure is there, range gets better, and the costs are comparable when buying one to gas powered vehicles. Too many are afraid they'll run out of battery and be stranded, but on the flipside there are gas stations everywhere.
They should be building more EV stations that look like typical gas stations, pavilions and all. But currently they're mostly put off to the side with no protection from the elements.
One thing EVs have going for them though is design. The coolest looking vehicles nowadays are all EV
Highly doubt EV share will get any higher than this anytime soon if ever. Not looking good for EVs.
Pretty much every single one of my close friends have bought ev's as their latest cars. Adoption in CA is still increasing from what I can tell. I have an EV and I see tons of brand new EVs at charging stations around Los Angeles
EV makes need to do a better job convincing snow-and-road-salt Northern markets that battery life doesn't suffer as badly as perceived in sub-zero C, salt doesn't rust the battery, and that front-wheel/all-wheel drive setups common in EVs deal with ice well.
My dad is a pretty progressive guy for a mid-gen Boomer, but he refused to consider EVs in February when he got a new car: "Can you imagine getting caught in a blizzard and running out of juice?" He experienced getting snowed-in a vehicle during '78, and I know that has stayed with him all these years.
This is a marketing & communications issue more than a product deficiency.
EV makes need to do a better job convincing snow-and-road-salt Northern markets that battery life doesn't suffer as badly as perceived in sub-zero C, salt doesn't rust the battery, and that front-wheel/all-wheel drive setups common in EVs deal with ice well.
It's not just a marketing problem.
Extreme cold weather range reduction and problems charging batteries in extreme cold are real tech deficiencies that need better science too.
I think there are some use cases in a city like Chicago where an EV makes sense, but being that I don't have a heated garage to charge in, nor a regular short-route daily commute (our car is primarily a family road trip machine), I remain unconvinced that the tech has matured enough for my case.
Our next family truckster will most likely be a hybrid.
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It seems outside of the Pacific cities, EVs kinda hit a wall and are awaiting additional infrastructure. The U.S. will transition, just later than initially expected.
The problem with EVs is that they have all the negative externalities of ICE vehicles with one exception - somewhat lower greenhouse emissions (but still pretty bad if you include production).
But otherwise, they're just as terrible for the built form, for pedestrian/bike safety and for road congestion. The U.S. shouldn't be subsidizing EVs, we should be subsidizing mobility alternatives to personal vehicles (transit, bike, pedestrian).
But otherwise, they're just as terrible for the built form, for pedestrian/bike safety and for road congestion. The U.S. shouldn't be subsidizing EVs, we should be subsidizing mobility alternatives to personal vehicles (transit, bike, pedestrian).
can't disagree with any of these points. EVs are a continuation of the status quo. james howard kunstler missed this one coming from a mile away, lol. (damn, has it really been 20yrs since 'the end of suburbia' came out?!)
it's going to take time, cities like my own are making improvements but there's still such a long way to go, and there are so many boomers out there fighting against meaningful change. i've had to detach myself from what's going on here because of all of the infighting - it's extremely disheartening to see folks pushing against the kinds of improvements that would make this such a better city to live in. (rail expansion, bike lanes, higher density) i dream of moving away frequently, life is too short.
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The problem with EVs is that they have all the negative externalities of ICE vehicles with one exception - somewhat lower greenhouse emissions (but still pretty bad if you include production).
they're definitely lower, and could be a lot lower. renewable power deployment on the grid is skyrocketing - wind/solar/hydro + nuclear make up over 40% of the US grid*. i am currently in the planning process for an ~11kw solar installation; my husband and i are excited about the prospect of charging our car/running our AC on our own power.
i'm really surprised urbanists aren't pushing more for EVs. cities aren't loud, internal combustion is loud, and who wouldn't want to be able to walk and bike around their city without breathing in the fumes from thousands of cars running nearby? sure, things have improved but what comes out of a tailpipe is still toxic.
the gasoline economy is also extremely energy intensive. think about all the energy it took mining for, piping, refining and trucking the oil that became the gasoline that is being burned in engines, and also consider how much is wasted as heat (almost 80% is wasted through heat and drivetrain losses, only 20% is actually converted into forward motion) thousands of kilowatt hours of electricity (from either the grid, or from diesel generators in the case of offshore rigs) is used to pump oil out of the ground, bunker oil used to ship the oil onshore or electricity used to pipe it onshore, the electricity inputs to refining as well as the portion of the oil used to create the heat used in the process of refining, the electricity used to to pump the refined gasoline through pipelines around the US, the diesel burned by the trucks used to transport the gas from storage facilities TO gas stations.
an electric motor is about 80% efficient in converting electricity to forward movement, which is why a car being charged from a diesel generator is basically as efficient as running the car from the diesel itself (assuming EV vs non-hybrid ICE)
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It seems outside of the Pacific cities, EVs kinda hit a wall and are awaiting additional infrastructure. The U.S. will transition, just later than initially expected.
i would be willing to bet it's going to keep growing at an exponential rate over the next few years. i might be wrong, but this seems to be following the same kind of s curve we've seen in every other disruption that has occurred in the last hundred years or so.
But otherwise, they're just as terrible for the built form, for pedestrian/bike safety and for road congestion. The U.S. shouldn't be subsidizing EVs, we should be subsidizing mobility alternatives to personal vehicles (transit, bike, pedestrian).
They're actually worse for pedestrian and cyclist safety because they are both much faster and much heavier than ICE vehicles. They will also be worse for roads because of the weight factor, while also draining road maintenance funds that rely on gas taxes.
They're actually worse for pedestrian and cyclist safety because they are both much faster and much heavier than ICE vehicles. They will also be worse for roads because of the weight factor, while also draining road maintenance funds that rely on gas taxes.
And if/when EVs take over the urban realm, we're gonna get stupid charging stations with a long line of giant SUVs & trucks, everywhere on public land, instead of outdoor cafes, sidewalk space, bike lanes, bus stops, etc. More public land wasted on giant, deadly vehicles.
But otherwise, they're just as terrible for the built form, for pedestrian/bike safety and for road congestion. The U.S. shouldn't be subsidizing EVs, we should be subsidizing mobility alternatives to personal vehicles (transit, bike, pedestrian).
lol if the US stops heavily subsidizing EVs the whole thing will collapse tomorrow. The entire "EV revolution" is just one big government project essentially.
But I agree. EVs are terrible, in some ways they're even worse than ICE vehicles. The world will never let go of their personal cars though.
I don't buy that EVs are destined to take over. Unless we reach a point where the whole world literally runs out of gas. Which is not going to happen.
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crawford/iheartthed, all i can say is look at europe. that's not happening over there. (well, except the bigger cars/SUVs, but those are the same gas vehicles we have here)
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Originally Posted by iheartthed
They're actually worse for pedestrian and cyclist safety because they are both much faster and much heavier than ICE vehicles. They will also be worse for roads because of the weight factor, while also draining road maintenance funds that rely on gas taxes.
registration fees are much higher on EVs now to cover this deficiency. EVs don't have to be significantly heavier than gas cars. the tesla model 3 (3,862 to 4,054 lbs) is a few hundred pounds heavier than a toyota camry. (3,310 to 3,595 lbs)
smaller EVs being sold in europe are also much lighter like the renault zoe, (3100lbs) peugeot e.208 (3370lbs) most EVs are not insanely powerful, they just get all the attention.
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Originally Posted by The North One
lol if the US stops heavily subsidizing EVs the whole thing will collapse tomorrow. The entire "EV revolution" is just one big government project essentially.
But I agree. EVs are terrible, in some ways they're even worse than ICE vehicles. The world will never let go of their personal cars though.
I don't buy that EVs are destined to take over. Unless we reach a point where the whole world literally runs out of gas. Which is not going to happen.
you realize the US oil industry is subsidized too, right?
i think you guys are making judgements based off of information that was outdated years ago, but all i can say is lets just wait and see what happens. maybe i'm wrong, but i've been following this shit since the days before the tesla roadster had even come out, and i've been rooting for that side the entire time. there will be ebbs and flows in the statistics but if you zoom out it's clear.
Cox Automotive forecasts EV sales in the U.S. to increase year over year in 2024, making this year the best year ever for EV sales. Analysts expect EV sales to reach roughly 10% of the market by the end of the year, up from 7.3% in the first quarter.
EVs don't have to be significantly heavier than gas cars. the tesla model 3 (3,862 to 4,054 lbs) is a few hundred pounds heavier than a toyota camry. (3,310 to 3,595 lbs)
I think they do have to be heavier to deal with range issues, right? I recently test drove a BMW i5 and it felt heavier than any car I've ever driven in that class size. Even though it uses the standard 5 series body and frame, it weighs in at 5,000 lbs which is roughly 1,000 lbs heavier than the 530i.
I'm not an anti-EV person but I do think we need to realize sooner, rather than later, that car crashes in EVs will be deadlier than we've been accustomed to with ICEs. There needs to be some education about that. I'm also just skeptical that EVs will be practical enough to achieve +80% market share of the personal vehicle market in the US.
There seems to be a bit of misguided or false equivalency when it comes to EVs and urbanism. EVs aren't a replacement for public transit. They're a replacement for ICE cars. We can switch to cleaner running personal vehicles, while still promoting investment and funding of public transit infrastructure projects, as well as enhancements for pedestrians and cyclists.
In fact, if you look at the metros with highest EV share, they're the ones with the most recently completed/under construction/planned projects.
San Francisco/San Jose - recently completed Muni light rail Central Subway and Van Ness BRT, current BART heavy rail extension, VTA light rail extension, Caltrain commuter rail electrification, SMART commuter rail extension, future ferry expansion, BART second Transbay Tube, Muni/BART Geary subway, Caltrain downtown extension, CAHSR
San Diego - recently completed Mid-Coast light rail extension
Los Angeles - recently completed Regional Connector light rail and Arrow commuter rail, current D Line heavy rail extension, K Line light rail extension to LAX, A Line light rail extension, OC Streetcar, future CAHSR, Brightline West, Sepulveda Pass Corridor heavy rail line
Seattle - recently completed light rail and streetcar extension, current Eastside, Federal Way, Lynnwood extensions
Denver - recently completed N Line commuter rail and G Line commuter rail and E Line light rail extension
Washington DC - recently completed Silver Line heavy rail extension, current Purple Line light rail
crawford/iheartthed, all i can say is look at europe. that's not happening over there. (well, except the bigger cars/SUVs, but those are the same gas vehicles we have here)
What's happening in Europe?
Europe, outside Scandanavia, is moving very slowly, just like the U.S. And this is even with deeper federal subsidies and the stricter phase out of the dominant, polluting diesel. Only Scandanavia has high EV market share.
And VW, MB, BMW, the Stellantis brands & Renault are behind US brands. The German brands are a global joke in terms of EV adoption.
I support the EV transition, just to get particulate pollution down and decouple from bone-sawing stone-age Saudis, but it will basically be a wash for planning and placemaking in the U.S.
In fact, if you look at the metros with highest EV share, they're the ones with the most recently completed/under construction/planned projects.
I don't think this is true, even if true is prolly a correlation/causation fail, and so what? The San Jose MSA, with the highest EV share, has very low transit, pedestrian and bike numbers.
The point is that EVs are subsidized, with most of the same negative externalities as ICE. Whether or not some light rail line gets built somewhere doesn't change this. Taxpayers are subsidizing households to drive around in dangerous, giant personal vehicles.
The San Jose MSA, with the highest EV share, has very low transit, pedestrian and bike numbers.
And yet, it's one of the metros with the most transportation infrastructure improvements in the US, in spite of high EV share.
Your argument that subsidizing EVs takes away from alternative transit improvement falls flat. Subsidizing EVs decreases the number of polluting vehicles on the road, not the amount of mobility alternatives. There is no evidence that not subsidizing EVs results in more public transit funding. You're incorrectly conflating the two.
I think they do have to be heavier to deal with range issues, right? I recently test drove a BMW i5 and it felt heavier than any car I've ever driven in that class size. Even though it uses the standard 5 series body and frame, it weighs in at 5,000 lbs which is roughly 1,000 lbs heavier than the 530i.
I'm not an anti-EV person but I do think we need to realize sooner, rather than later, that car crashes in EVs will be deadlier than we've been accustomed to with ICEs. There needs to be some education about that. I'm also just skeptical that EVs will be practical enough to achieve +80% market share of the personal vehicle market in the US.
you are calling out a valid problem - cars have been getting heavier and more powerful all around, not just EVs. manufacturers are trying to prove their viability to american car owners by giving them options that are bigger and faster - and they're generally re-using their existing gasoline platforms with modifications to make them electric instead of designing them from the ground up as EVs to help reduce structural weight. it doesn't have to be that way - and it seems less so outside the US. we need more regulations on that kind of shit. the cybertruck is insane, it's a sledgehammer with a knife's edge that can accelerate to 60 in 2 seconds and can't be sold in europe because of that lack of safety for pedestrians...
you realize the US oil industry is subsidized too, right?
Not to mention the big bailout of 2008. $81 billion to bail out GM and Chrysler. One big government project indeed.
I agree that the subsidies are no longer needed for EVs and we should let the growth occur more organically, but it's funny how the past is conveniently overlooked by some.
One of the most frequent things you'll hear in Chicago regarding EVs is "I'm not gonna gamble on a full EV until they can sort out the cold weather battery issues."
My family will likely be due for a new car sometime in the next 5 years. We'll most likely go hybrid because winter.
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Originally Posted by hipster duck
I'm not sure how big a deal this is. Over 20% of new car registrations in Quebec, which probably has harsher winters than Chicago, are EVs.
It's climate, but also gas prices. Gas is very expensive in California. In Los Angeles, for example, you can find some stations at $4.29 and even a few under $4.00, but for as many at $4.29 or lower, you'll find as many at $4.69 or higher. So there is an incentive to save money with an EV. That may be the reason for EVs in Quebec despite the climate, because gas prices in just about every province hover closer to the $5.00/gal mark when you convert volume and currency.
My dad is a pretty progressive guy for a mid-gen Boomer, but he refused to consider EVs in February when he got a new car: "Can you imagine getting caught in a blizzard and running out of juice?" He experienced getting snowed-in a vehicle during '78, and I know that has stayed with him all these years.
This is a marketing & communications issue more than a product deficiency.
Not just Boomers but my millennial engineer brother won't touch an EV because of the effect on harsh NY winters have on range. My Boomer dad does have a PHEV and loves it. My next car will probably also be a PHEV which is more conducive to life in TX though I do like Rivians.
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Not to mention the big bailout of 2008. $81 billion to bail out GM and Chrysler. One big government project indeed.
I agree that the subsidies are no longer needed for EVs and we should let the growth occur more organically, but it's funny how the past is conveniently overlooked by some.
Nobody is overlooking anything except maybe EV enthusiasts. Obviously the auto industry is subsidized. And everybody got a bailout in 2008. The whole economic system of the country was collapsing.
But at least ICE vehicles ya know, make money. And have for over a hundred years. Also they don't require insanely environmentally destructive and exploitive cobalt mining, which is also a scarce metal. The battery thing will always be an issue unless there's some technological miracle. Not to mention issues with the grid to power it all.
Even disregarding all these things. Where do you think the electricity to run these cars comes from? Vast majority of it in the US is fossil fuels.
I'm not exactly against EVs but the hype is obviously bullshit.
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