Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by harls;10230871[B

]My kids switch between English and French like a light switch. [/B]They don't get how some of their high school friends down the street can't do it.

My 'hick backwoods prairie folk parents' were scared their grandkids wouldn't be able to communicate with them. That sort of disappeared after my first kid turned 3.

I hope not for the traditional Gatineau reason of not having full command of either language.

[harls]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I hope not for the traditional Gatineau reason of not having full command of either language.

I'm going to chalk this up to KW oldtimer stuff.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You've clearly never served. It was never possible to operate jointly at anything above a platoon level without English. And unless France intends to never participate in a joint operation ever again, they'll need to have some competency in the functional language of the alliance. This has been true long before participation in the integrated command. Thankfully, your country's politicians and military officers care more about national security than silly virtue signalling on language politics.

It wasn't anglicized like that before the return in the integrated command of NATO.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

French is a major world language but in North America is a minor language so as an independant country of 8 million why wouldn't they have the same fate as Netherlands. Was there recently and English is the work language in many workplaces. University programs only offered in English are widespread. In bars and restaurants it is common not to be able to be served in Dutch.

You're seriously comparing Québec and The Netherlands?

Dutch is the only official language of The Netherlands, and although many people speak foreign languages, above all English, but also German and French, there is no doubt Dutch is the supreme language everywhere, is not threatened by English or any other language, no language erosion, no large Anglophone community growing every year, etc. Consequently there is no angst regarding the Dutch language, and people have no problem using English at work in an environment that requires it.

Also, The Netherlands were never colonized by Great Britain, and Amsterdam was never at any point ruled by English people lording over Dutch peasants, with signage only in English, "speak white", and all that nonsense.

As for universities, you're slightly behind the curve. There is now a movement away from English and returning to Dutch teaching, as English teaching is accused of many things (professors not mastering it well enough to express all nuances, young people forgetting Dutch technical terms, English courses attracting too many university tourists and migrants, etc).

Dutch Universities Cutting English Courses to Discourage International Students

Government to limit number of English-language courses at Dutch universities

Dutch universities agree to curb internationalisation

Things are moving fast in today's Europe. One's knowledge from 10 years ago is often outdated.

[Acajack]

Yes there is a slowly growing concern about the future of the national language and even backlash in even the most English-friendly countries like Sweden and Iceland. I don't think anyone would have predicted that a few years ago.

In the ROC these places are always cited as models for Quebec, and we're always asked why we can't be more like them when it comes to English.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes I don't know politically but I don't think they feel any threat. Having to learn English in order to function isn't seen as a threat. Granted some of it is chicken and egg but explaining that Bill 101 was a law enacted by the majority that doesn't allow the majority to go to school in the other language gets quizical looks in most places.

Does it really, when people actually have all the facts?

Most people abroad also wonder why there are so many people who have lived their entire lives in Montréal and don't speak French.

[harls]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Having to learn English in order to function isn't seen as a threat.

Having to learn French in order to function isn't a threat either.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I'd assume that means that all kids graduating secondary school are at least somewhat bilingual?

They all have a decent understanding of English I'd say but many might be hesitant to speak it due to a lack of opportunities to practice or shyness.

Some of my kids' friends who are born and raised in Gatineau have a surprising amount of hesitancy when it comes to speaking English.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

Having to learn French in order to function isn't a threat either.

Yeah. Québécois aren't as unrealistic and unreasonable as they are generally portrayed to be in the ROC.

They know full well what their geographic position in North America and the modern world bring in terms of challenges for them.

They just want a reasonable fighting chance and whether Canada makes a safe space of sorts for that available to them or they need to strike out on their own in order to give it a better shot, we'll have to wait and see.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Quebec will often point out they are an Island in an anglophone continent. I think they forget how much Canada protects them from this to some extent.

Sorry but no one sees Canada as a buffer against anglicization for Québec.

It's more like a Trojan horse that has always grown the presence and usage of the English language in the province, except maybe for a brief historical respite from the 1970s to fairly recently.

We still need to speak English as soon as we step outside Quebec or deal with someone from there, and even inside Quebec itself with people who live here and these people by and large are people who identify as Canadians first and often only Canadian and express no attachment to Quebec. Some are even openly hostile. And their share of the population is increasing rapidly.

So tell me why Quebecers should see Canada as this great pro-French buffer?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

People I know who would have been in elementary school in the 90s report starting later if they are starting earlier we should ask why it's so unsuccessful.

Medium sized EU countries have much better results which is of couse a society wide question.

They're "countries", though.

Quebec isn't a country.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

My kids switch between English and French like a light switch. They don't get how some of their high school friends down the street can't do it.

My 'hick backwoods prairie folk parents' were scared their grandkids wouldn't be able to communicate with them. That sort of disappeared after my first kid turned 3.

We had people voice the same concerns to us about our future kids when we moved to Quebec.

Today our kids are totally functional in both languages and other kids in our family raised in Ontario are basically anglophones who even struggle with French at times. Even if they went to French school. Not immersion, but French school.

[MolsonExport]

I think the majority of people in the so-called ROC are sympathetic to Quebec (granted, there are people and pockets where this is not the case), and I would not draw any conclusions about the general feeling from an online forum.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

We had people voice the same concerns to us about our future kids when we moved to Quebec.

Today our kids are totally functional in both languages and other kids in our family raised in Ontario are basically anglophones who even struggle with French at times. Even if they went to French school. Not immersion, but French school.

To this day, I cannot speak French to my kids. They see me as a blockhead. I've even tried an experiment to only speak French to them for a full day. It never works.

People from Anglo/franco marriages will understand.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I think the majority of people in the so-called ROC are sympathetic to Quebec (granted, there are people and pockets where this is not the case), and I would not draw any conclusions about the general feeling from an online forum.

In my observation this forum is actually quite a bit better than average in terms of knowledge and openness.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In my observation this forum is actually quite a bit better than average in terms or knowledge and openness.

well, perhaps you and I walk in different social circles. I've spent quite a bit of time living in different parts of the country, on top of my 28 (non consecutive) years spent in La Belle Province.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In my observation this forum is actually quite a bit better than average in terms or knowledge and openness.

Yes on this issue at least I think we are much more tolerant of Quebec and French than the average Canadian who bristles at even having French on cereal boxes.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes on this issue at least I think we are much more tolerant of Quebec and French than the average Canadian who bristles at even having French on cereal boxes.

Well hopefully there aren't that many ROCers who still bristle at French on cereal boxes in 2024, but few people really "get it" in the ROC and if we are not on the same wavelength here, there are more people who are close or at least try.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well hopefully there aren't that many ROCers who still bristle at French on cereal boxes in 2024, but few people really "get it" in the ROC and if we are not on the same wavelength here, there are more people who are close or at least try.

A French guy I met last year who was working in a law firm in Toronto told me that his colleagues say people in Québec are "inward-looking" , kind of backward and not open to other people. They didn't say "racist", but it was close to it.

I suppose that's the general image of Québec in the ROC. It wasn't a very positive image...

[kool maudit]

It wouldn't be too far to say that the situation with English in the Netherlands and Scandinavia is a mile wide and an inch deep. Maybe a mile and a foot...

Most people under 60 can speak English here, most often quite well. There are tech companies in Stockholm where English is the office's official language. There are Swedes who are likely more comfortable discussing work-related things in English than in Swedish, because they are used to reporting on these things in English and have a history with the necessary terms and phrasings. There is very little perceived tension on the level of identity.

And with all that said... this is not a bilingual country. This is a Swedish-speaking country. Real life happens in Swedish. It would require some deep cultural anthropology to get into exactly why and how it is this way, but it is.

The other issue is that French is not going to act like Dutch or Swedish, whatever the local circumstance. Languages have personalities of their own.