LOS ANGELES | Transportation News & Discussion - Page 348

craigs · #**6941** Posted **Jun 18, 2024, 2:28 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd3189

Do you guys think it would be a better idea for LA to build streetcars/ light rail again through many of the major boulevards like Sunset, Wilshire, Hollywood, etc.?

I think dedicated BRT lanes are the way to go, especially in terms of cost. We could probably have gold-standard BRT on three or four boulevards for the cost of a single light rail line on one of those boulevards. Dozens of miles of steel rails and electrification cost a lot more and require more maintenance than BRT infrastructure.

Nouvellecosse · #**6942** Posted **Jun 18, 2024, 3:38 AM**

Before buses were a thing, streetcars were necessary to haul bus-sized loads. Nowadays buses can do that and if there's room for a streetcar ROW and political will for signal priority then buses can avoid traffic just as well as streetcars can. Modern streetcars can still potentially carry heavier loads than buses since they can be longer, but unless your bus route is running say, every 5 minutes and is at or near capacity, then the extra capacity isn't really needed. But if it is, then converting a really busy bus route into streetcars can reduce labour, energy, and maintence costs. So I'd say it depends how high the current and projected passenger volume on the route is.

k1052 · #**6943** Posted **Jun 18, 2024, 3:52 PM**

People would have kittens at taking away car lanes on any of the major streets to put street cars back. Give me shallow cut and cover Innovia 300 lines with platform screen doors and short headways.

homebucket · #**6944** Posted **Jun 18, 2024, 3:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052

People would have kittens at taking away car lanes on any of the major streets to put street cars back. Give me shallow cut and cover Innovia 300 lines with platform screen doors and short headways.

Merchants and small business owners would definitely push back against cut and cover too.

k1052 · #**6945** Posted **Jun 18, 2024, 3:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by homebucket

Merchants and small business owners would definitely push back against cut and cover too.

This is a smaller constituency to deal with in LA than literally all drivers.

homebucket · #**6946** Posted **Jun 18, 2024, 6:00 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052

This is a smaller constituency to deal with in LA than literally all drivers.

They still have a lot more power than you might think, and can tie up or delay projects just as effectively, if not more.

Regardless of which path is taken, taking lanes away for dedicated BRT vs cut and cover construction for a subway line, it is certain there will be plenty of opposition.

sopas ej · #**6947** Posted **Jun 18, 2024, 6:10 PM**

Los Angeles doesn't do cut and cover for subway construction anymore; the last time they did that was the 1990s-early 2-thousand aughts. Even though it was blamed on the contractor, the whole Hollywood Boulevard tunnel collapse fiasco of the mid-1990s put an end to that.

It's been about tunnel boring now.

homebucket · #**6948** Posted **Jun 18, 2024, 6:25 PM**

^ That too.

So basically the options would be TBM under all these corridors ($$$$) vs at grade light rail ($$) vs BRT ($). I think given the cost and efficacy, BRT would probably be the best option. An at grade light rail line isn't likely to be substantially faster, but have significantly more costs associated with it.

Busy Bee · #**6949** Posted **Jun 18, 2024, 6:49 PM**

On the Purple Line Extension the running tunnels are TBM bored but the station boxes still require cut and cover construction. The speed and efficiency Metro contractors carried out excavation and temporary steel supported streets really is a feat that has gone underappreciated.

craigs · #**6950** Posted **Jun 18, 2024, 7:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by homebucket

Regardless of which path is taken, taking lanes away for dedicated BRT vs cut and cover construction for a subway line, it is certain there will be plenty of opposition.

Opposition doesn't always stop it, though. Metro is currently removing a car travel lane on the stretch of Hollywood Boulevard between Gower and Lyman. The new road configuration includes a protected bike lane, bus boarding areas, and a central turn lane.

sopas ej · #**6951** Posted **Jun 18, 2024, 9:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

On the Purple Line Extension the running tunnels are TBM bored but the station boxes still require cut and cover construction. The speed and efficiency Metro contractors carried out excavation and temporary steel supported streets really is a feat that has gone underappreciated.

I know that the station boxes are still cut and cover. But with the tunnel boring for the tunnels, though more expensive, there is no disruption at street level, only at the station box construction sites.

I remember how awful it was along Hollywood Blvd. during the subway construction back then, as well as in downtown LA in the early 1990s. Tunnel boring is so much better.

homebucket · #**6952** Posted **Jun 20, 2024, 1:38 AM**

Quote:

Construction Nearing Completion for OC Streetcar, Opening Expected Summer 2025
Tracks and stations appear nearly complete for the 4.1-mile streetcar. Through Santa Ana much of the light rail project is accompanied by curb-protected bike lanes.
By Joe Linton
2:24 PM PDT on June 17, 2024

The Orange County Transportation Authority (OCTA) is nearing completion on the OC Streetcar project, a 4.15-mile long $579 million light rail line located in the Orange County cities of Santa Ana and Garden Grove.

OC Streetcar construction got underway in 2018. Its anticipated opening date is just over a year off: August 2025.

The eastern end of the OC Streetcar project will run on-street through central Santa Ana, connecting with its civic center and train station, which serves Amtrak and Metrolink, plus other bus transit connections. The western end of the route will run off-street on a historic rail corridor called the West Santa Ana Branch (where, one county and a dozen miles away, L.A. Metro is also finalizing plans for its Southeast Gateway Line light rail. Though it may be theoretically possible, it is unlikely that the two lines would connect in the foreseeable future.)

https://cal.streetsblog.org/2024/06/...ed-summer-2025

homebucket · #**6953** Posted **Jun 20, 2024, 1:41 AM**

And the photos:

https://cal.streetsblog.org/2024/06/...ed-summer-2025

mattropolis · #**6954** Posted **Jun 20, 2024, 4:48 PM**

I like streetcars, but why spend 100's of millions of dollars and have no separation between the streetcar vehicles and car traffic?

Jun · #**6955** Posted **Jun 20, 2024, 5:00 PM**

.

Busy Bee · #**6956** Posted **Jun 20, 2024, 5:02 PM**

I don't know enough about this project to comment on it's actual utility, but it sounds like it would have been better to do what the above commenter said.

202_Cyclist · #**6957** Posted **Jun 20, 2024, 5:15 PM**

I grew up in Orange County and I am excited to ride this streetcar. I also think the bicycle/pedestrian improvements look great. Orange County really missed out, however, with not building the CenterLine light-rail, which would have connected Santa Ana, South Coast Plaza, John Wayne airport, and UC Irvine.

https://ocgrandjury.org/sites/jury/f...centerline.pdf

SoCalKid · #**6958** Posted **Jun 20, 2024, 7:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

I grew up in Orange County and I am excited to ride this streetcar. I also think the bicycle/pedestrian improvements look great. Orange County really missed out, however, with not building the CenterLine light-rail, which would have connected Santa Ana, South Coast Plaza, John Wayne airport, and UC Irvine.

https://ocgrandjury.org/sites/jury/f...centerline.pdf

Totally agreed. It would have been really nice to see transit in Orange County with its own ROW or dedicated lanes. But ~40% of this is in its own ROW, which is meaningful. I do think some trips will be somewhat time competitive with driving.

Santa Ana is one of the few urban-ish areas in Orange County, so let's hope that this gets real ridership unlike most streetcar systems in the US.

LAsam · #**6959** Posted **Jun 20, 2024, 11:22 PM**

I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to Orange County. Who is the target market for this? People commuting in via Metrolink to work in Santa Ana?

202_Cyclist · #**6960** Posted **Jun 21, 2024, 11:15 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAsam

I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to Orange County. Who is the target market for this? People commuting in via Metrolink to work in Santa Ana?

I am not sure. Many of the jobs are so decentralized in Orange County. I think many of the jobs are closer to John Wayne Airport and farther south in Irvine. In 2022, there were 308,000 residents in Santa Ana and 169,000 residents in Garden Grove, so that is nearly a half million people there.

As with everywhere in Southern California, I think Santa Ana has changed over the past 20 - 30 years. When I was growing up, it was a working-class city with higher crime and poverty than elsewhere in Orange County. Now there are neighborhoods with homes that are $800K - $1M. I don't mean to rant but I don't know how people afford to live in coastal Southern California. Even the more modest communities are absurdly expensive now.

https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...00000-na/sby-6