Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The thing is you'll need formal French if you want to work in French.

And, imo, you need a solid foundation in the grammar of any language to attain a functional speaking level. The repetitive drills are boring, but helpful if you're serious about learning a language.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I also question the quality of French teachers. Now that I actually have decent comfort in French, when I think back, I think I know more now than most of my French teachers did growing up. Given how prestigious/lucrative teaching jobs are in this country and how many Francophones and bilinguals we have, that should never have been the case. And I suspect if we had 25% immersion instead of 45 mins per day (or whatever it was in elementary school) we'd have had more actual Francophone teachers making us more comfortable with French instead of drilling verb conjugations just to make work.

This is a common complaint with French teaching across the world. On the SSC forum, Eastern European forumers said the teaching of French in Eastern Europe is boring, like learning Latin, all sorts of rules, conjugation, grammar. The teachers disgust the students. That's why French fluency in a country like Romanian is declining fast (everybody is switching to English).

That's also how German is taught in France: all about complicated grammar rules, German is seen as a subject to select bright students, not as a way to actually learn the language.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Agree our levels could use a rejig. I am not sure I agree with the chart above. To get an Oral C I think you need to be at least B2 on the European scale. I haven't taken EU French test but in other languages a B1 is nowhere near what you'd need to get a C. Even a weak B2 is questionable in my opinion. Sure a C1 is true fluency that isn't tested at any of our levels.

Mostly agree. I think the reason they put our BBB up against their B1 is because we don't demand a better writing capability for a higher level. CCC is exceptionally rare in government. I agree that our oral C is at their B2 level. That said, it's a chart from Alliance Francaise and they are motivated to sell their courses in Ottawa. So....

Originally Posted by YOWetal

It's sad when they take an executive spend 12 months to get them to CCC and it's really cringeworthy as they make speeches or lead meetings in French. Teaching to the test is rampant.

Agreed. And it's because the government tends to give language training so late in one's career that at that point, there's a lot of pressure just to get them their level. Having a $150-200k per year exec learning languages is very expensive. And a lot of the schools contracted are kinda questionable. They just want to get the person their C to keep their contract. I've been lucky to get a military course because the instructors are highly qualified and motivated to teach French. They really don't care that much about the test. If you need a level and don't get it, you just stay until you do. If not, you're sent on your way regardless of what you get. Them not caring about the test, actually means they are focused on getting us to be comfortable with the language. Something I've enjoyed.

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

And, imo, you need a solid foundation in the grammar of any language to attain a functional speaking level. The repetitive drills are boring, but helpful if you're serious about learning a language.

Learning a language is like learning music. You need to have an element of utilization to sustain interest and develop real competence. Imagine if somebody told you that they'll only teach you actual songs on the piano after you have mastered every scale there is and learned everything about music theory. That would be seen as ridiculous. But that's exactly how our actual education system tries to teach anglophone kids languages.

But it's not how actual French schools and immersion programs work. They just start talking to the kids in French and over time the kids are habituated to hearing and responding in French. The grammar comes after. And usually by that point they actually have enough of a natural comprehension of the language that the grammar actually makes sense to them. That comfort stays with them forever. And it takes only a few months of refresher to make them fully competent again. If you want to teach a language, there is no substitute for immersion.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Mostly agree. I think the reason they put our BBB up against their B1 is because we don't demand a better writing capability for a higher level. CCC is exceptionally rare in government. I agree that our oral C is at their B2 level. That said, it's a chart from Alliance Francaise and they are motivated to sell their courses in Ottawa. So....

Agreed you can have almost no writing ability at all. The writing test is a test of grammar.

I don't think CCC is that rare. All EXs need it do they not as well as lots of public facing people and central or quasi central agencies. RCMP it's widespread.

What rank in the miiltary needs it?

Meanwhile lots of non-government workers in Ottawa claim they can't get any jobs without French.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Agreed you can have almost no writing ability at all. The writing test is a test of grammar.

I don't think CCC is that rare. All EXs need it do they not as well as lots of public facing people and central or quasi central agencies. RCMP it's widespread.

What rank in the miiltary needs it?

Meanwhile lots of non-government workers in Ottawa claim they can't get any jobs without French.

I went from CBC to CCC to Exempt over my civil service career, if I recall the designations correctly. The interesting part is that this happened without any additional study after graduation from university and using French on the job only rarely.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Agreed you can have almost no writing ability at all. The writing test is a test of grammar.

I wouldn't mock that Grammar Test. I'm sure more than a few Francophones would struggle getting a C on that one.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I don't think CCC is that rare. All EXs need it do they not as well as lots of public facing people and central or quasi central agencies. RCMP it's widespread.

What rank in the miiltary needs it?

CCC is very rare. At least in the CAF and at DND, Execs and military equivalents (Colonels and Generals) need CBC. I think the only positions that might ask for CCC might be Level 1s like the Commander of the Air Force. And I'm not even sure about that. I know there are public affairs positions that demand CCC in both languages. But again, they are a literal handful.

For the rest:

Maj/LCdr: BAB
LCol/CDR: BBB
≥ Col/Capt(N): CBC

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Meanwhile lots of non-government workers in Ottawa claim they can't get any jobs without French.

And they are right. Getting language training is incredibly difficult in government. I have friends who simply spent a few thousand bucks to hire private tutors to get their levels. There's a half-joke going around the CAF that we buy our promotions. And it's because of things like this.

I don't think it's right for the federal government to insist on Second Language competency to this level in a country where the education systems doesn't come close to teaching that level outside exceptional circumstances. They should be screening for professional competency and then offering language training to successful candidates. Not have language as part of the screening criteria. Might as well be honest and tell people that you can't work for the government unless you did French immersion as a kid.

That said, if you grow up in Ottawa and didn't learn French to a B level, you should be pissed at your parents. So many more opportunities here than say in Calgary.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

CCC is very rare. At least in the CAF and at DND, Execs and military equivalents (Colonels and Generals) need CBC. I think the only positions that might ask for CCC might be Level 1s like the Commander of the Air Force. And I'm not even sure about that. I know there are public affairs positions that demand CCC in both languages. But again, they are a literal handful.

For the rest:

Maj/LCdr: BAB
LCol/CDR: BBB
≥ Col/Capt(N): CBC



And they are right. Getting language training is incredibly difficult in government. I have friends who simply spent a few thousand bucks to hire private tutors to get their levels. There's a half-joke going around the CAF that we buy our promotions. And it's because of things like this.

I don't think it's right for the federal government to insist on Second Language competency to this level in a country where the education systems doesn't come close to teaching that level outside exceptional circumstances. Might as well be honest and tell people that you can't work for the government unless you did French immersion as a kid.

That said, if you grow up in Ottawa and didn't learn French to a B level, you should be pissed at your parents. So many more opportunities here than say in Calgary.

I would have thought a high percentage of francophones in the CAF would meet CCC.

P.S. French immersion didn't exist when I was in school.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I would have thought a high percentage of francophones in the CAF would meet CCC.

I was talking about the requirements. Not what people have. And you're right. A lot of Francos do get Cs. Kinda why the old stereotype of the public service and military being difficult for Francophones just doesn't hold anymore. If anything, it's the other way around.

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

P.S. French immersion didn't exist when I was in school.

Anybody who is looking for a job today definitely grew up with French Immersion being available.

How did you learn French, out of curiosity?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I was talking about the requirements. Not what people have. And you're right. A lot of Francos do get Cs. Kinda why the old stereotype of the public service and military being difficult for Francophones just doesn't hold anymore. If anything, it's the other way around.



Anybody who is looking for a job today definitely grew up with French Immersion being available.

How did you learn French, out of curiosity?

Secondary school courses followed by an undergrad degree in French (and Spanish) literature (simpler times).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Secondary school courses followed by an undergrad degree in French (and Spanish) literature (simpler times).

A viable path to a job that doesn't require a specific scientific/technical competency. Bit more challenging to get a Cybersecurity Specialist or a Flight Safety Investigator with a BBB. But even if you do, how many better candidates did you exclude because you insisted they have Bs before being hired?

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Meanwhile lots of non-government workers in Ottawa claim they can't get any jobs without French.

How difficult is it to get those jobs without English?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

How difficult is it to get those jobs without English?

Depends on the job. You can't be an aerospace engineer without English because everything in aviation is done in English and the government is no exception.

Likewise, I'm not sure how you serve anglophone customers at Service Canada without English. Clearly they have to hire in proportion to the population.

All of the above is why Gatineau ends up with all the, shall we say "soft" government departments, like Heritage, Citizenship, etc. All areas where English is not essential.

On the other hand, we reduce our pool of the aerospace engineers we want to hire by insisting on BBB in French. And then we wonder why government isn't more efficient. It's what happens when you don't actually prioritize job competence. And to be fair this debate can be widened beyond language too.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Depends on the job. You can't be an aerospace engineer without English because everything in aviation is done in English and the government is no exception.

Likewise, I'm not sure how you serve anglophone customers at Service Canada without English. Clearly they have to hire in proportion to the population.

All of the above is why Gatineau ends up with all the, shall we say "soft" government departments, like Heritage, Citizenship, etc. All areas where English is not essential.

On the other hand, we reduce our pool of the aerospace engineers we want to hire by insisting on BBB in French. And then we wonder why government isn't more efficient. It's what happens when you don't actually prioritize job competence. And to be fair this debate can be widened beyond language too.

Certainly most departments work in English. We are not bilingual in the true sense. I hadn't thought departments in Gatineau were inherantly softer or even more francphone neccessarily but I guess it's generally true.

BBB requirements seem totally pointless to me. With French training (designed for the test) you can get BBB with nothing more than basic small talk ability in French.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Depends on the job. You can't be an aerospace engineer without English because everything in aviation is done in English and the government is no exception.

Likewise, I'm not sure how you serve anglophone customers at Service Canada without English. Clearly they have to hire in proportion to the population.

All of the above is why Gatineau ends up with all the, shall we say "soft" government departments, like Heritage, Citizenship, etc. All areas where English is not essential.

On the other hand, we reduce our pool of the aerospace engineers we want to hire by insisting on BBB in French. And then we wonder why government isn't more efficient. It's what happens when you don't actually prioritize job competence. And to be fair this debate can be widened beyond language too.

I am not sure the highlighted is true. I guess it can depend on one's definition of a "soft" government department, but while Gatineau has heritage it also has environment and climate change, public works, plus all federal social programs are basically run out of the city, which is huge. And citizenship is actually in Ottawa (with immigration).

I don't think the feds give any consideration to the area of expertise of departments when they locate them in either downtown Gatineau or downtown Ottawa. After all they are only 500 m apart. It's really a question of office space management and that's it.

Another thing is even in the "soft" departments (based in Gatineau or elsewhere), English is still essential and I assume the main language of work, or at best co-equal with French.

There wouldn't be anywhere in the federal public service where English isn't essential, except maybe the mail room guy in a Service Canada centre in Rivière-du-Loup.

Aren't less than 5% of federal jobs designated French only? With about half designated bilingual and the rest English only?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not sure the highlighted is true. I guess it can depend on one's definition of a "soft" government department, but while Gatineau has heritage it also has environment and climate change, public works, plus all federal social programs are basically run out of the city, which is huge. And citizenship is actually in Ottawa (with immigration).

Nobody is going to say it out loud. But go look at the public service categories that end up with jobs in Gatineau. Also, Climate Change these days is getting closer to the soft side.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Nobody is going to say it out loud. But go look at the public service categories that end up with jobs in Gatineau. Also, Climate Change these days is getting closer to the soft side.

Naah. I don't think they're that devious or sophisticated. Or even attuned to big picture stuff in any way. The federal public service is as bean-counter and pencil-pusher as you can get. More than ever in fact.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Certainly most departments work in English. We are not bilingual in the true sense. I hadn't thought departments in Gatineau were inherantly softer or even more francphone neccessarily but I guess it's generally true.

BBB requirements seem totally pointless to me. With French training (designed for the test) you can get BBB with nothing more than basic small talk ability in French.

Departments in Gatineau are more francophone I would say but that's mostly because people over time will gravitate to jobs closer to home. It doesn't affect climate scientists at Environment Canada as much because that's a specialized field, but in interchangeable stuff that every organization has like contracts, accounting, audit, communications, human resources, etc., people can work in any department so they seek out jobs in Gatineau for commuting reasons.

I am sure that the number of francophones at RCMP HQ has slowly but surely plummeted since they moved from central-eastern Ottawa (easily accessible from the Gatineau side and also Orléans, Rockland, Embrun, etc.) to Barrhaven.

[Acajack]

Very apropos.

Quebecers are the Canadians who support bilingualism the most, both for the entire country and within their own province.

They also see it as a source of Canadian pride, whereas most ROCers generally do not. More ROCers see it as placating or kowtowing to a minority!

Also ROCers tend to disagree that their province should be bilingual, but also paradoxically think Quebec should be a bilingual province.

https://www.ledroit.com/actualites/2...F65VJNHHFNUYE/

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Naah. I don't think they're that devious or sophisticated. Or even attuned to big picture stuff in any way. The federal public service is as bean-counter and pencil-pusher as you can get. More than ever in fact.

The good thing is that they don't have to be devious that way. Things have just worked out and gelled in that direction.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Very apropos.

Quebecers are the Canadians who support bilingualism the most, both for the entire country and within their own province.

They also see it as a source of Canadian pride, whereas most ROCers generally do not. More ROCers see it as placating or kowtowing to a minority!

Also ROCers tend to disagree that their province should be bilingual, but also paradoxically think Quebec should be a bilingual province.

https://www.ledroit.com/actualites/2...F65VJNHHFNUYE/

I don't think that represents a paradox.