PHILADELPHIA | 76 Place | 412 FT | 30 FLOORS

[SEFTA]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Market East is doing so poor this guy doesn't even know it's a commercial and office district lol. Everyday the buildings between 7th and 15th grow more empty with leases expiring. I'm hardly a MAGA but with the failing mall, every other month shootings outside of it, constant bum fights on Filbert outside the abandoned bus station, empty commercial strips of ghetto former gold stores, empty desolate streets after dark, locked train station doors because it's unsafe after 7PM. I find it comical that someone could think "jeopardizing" that is a "bad thing". Sorry, but this is probably one of the last places on the internet I'm willing to be gaslit into thinking Market East is a healthy and stable neighborhood.

It's a mixed use area as "East Market" establishes. I'm hoping for more.
Gaslit? I never said it was healthy or stable but I can still see a future without an arena
This guy? Where'd you learn to talk to people that disagree with you?

[UrbanRevival]

Constructive criticism is important. We all know Market East has long been the weakest link in Center City. And even though "East Market" was a fantastic start for revitalization, it's clearly not nearly enough. That corridor absolutely needs to continue to be a priority for attracting continued investment and redevelopment, especially the Disney Hole.

I do believe if implemented properly and thoughtfully, the 76ers project could really be a boon. But details are crucial, and the 76ers have a lot more work to do than just releasing glossy renderings to make sure they get it right.

That being said, it's important to keep context in mind. Office fundamentals are severely challenged in every metro area across the US, and even globally. And potential office demolition certainly isn't unique to Philly:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...fice-building/

https://www.axios.com/local/twin-cit...own-ameriprise

https://www.businessinsider.com/offi...-supply-2024-1

All these links to say: let's keep the Negadelphian spiraling in check. Many things are within Philadelphia's control to improve, but macroeconomics are not.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

It's a mixed use area as Market East establishes. I'm hoping for more.
Gaslit? I never said it was healthy or stable but I can still see a future without an arena

You literally suggested that building 76 place would "jeopardize the future of the neighborghood". That's a bold statement that is FAR AWAY from reality.

This guy? Where'd you learn to talk to people that disagree with you?
Temple? Twitter? Very unprofessional & condescending. Like you're speaking to the other members of your little club.

I was hoping I was talking with other professionals who live and work in Philadelphia, and have traveled around the country and world enough to see what actually successful mixed-use districts look like and would like the same for our own city.

You are no more of an expert than anyone else here.

true, but I am also not dumb enough to think this is type of thing is bad. I love that the Sixers want to use Filbert as a community meeting space:

Your exaggerations and hyperbola don't impress me.
I won't be going back and forth with you, as I know you like that.

That's fine if you don't actually want to have a conversation about the topic. I find saying that there is a "growing neighborhood in jeopardy" if 76 Place is built to be more than hyperbole. It's a lie. The neighborhood's in much more jeopardy if the mall stays half empty and goes bankrupt again.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

I find saying that there is a "growing neighborhood in jeopardy" if 76 Place is built to be more than hyperbola.

Not sure what conic section equations have to do with it...

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

Not sure what conic section equations have to do with it...

Been trying to think of a witty geometry related come back and I got nothing. All I know is that my opinion runs perpendicular from some other posters on the subject

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Mostly agree about Market East, especially because it's a main corridor that visitors naturally frequent, not a little side street.

Maybe it's because I've worked for a NY company for so many years, but I can't be the only person who has known NUMEROUS people come down to Philly for something at the convention center and stay right in Market East and come away with the impression that.. Philly is kind of a dump. So so so many people have said shit like that to me over the years. I go "did you go to reading terminal?" "yeah, but there's like a crazy homeless in Philly isn't there?" Market East leaves such a poor impression. I get it, the arena is not some people's preferred venue, but guess what? There is no other real alternative that has ever been presented. I was glad to see Crossing Broad take a real swipe at the idiotic reporting going on at the Inquirer over this topic.

Instead of a Basketball Arena, Let's Build a Market Street "Welcoming District" that No One Can Pay For

[Frontst17]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Market East is doing so poor this guy doesn't even know it's a commercial and office district lol. Everyday the buildings between 7th and 15th grow more empty with leases expiring. I'm hardly a MAGA but with the failing mall, every other month shootings outside of it, constant bum fights on Filbert outside the abandoned bus station, empty commercial strips of ghetto former gold stores, empty desolate streets after dark, locked train station doors because it's unsafe after 7PM. I find it comical that someone could think "jeopardizing" that is a "bad thing". Sorry, but this is probably one of the last places on the internet I'm willing to be gaslit into thinking Market East is a healthy and stable neighborhood.

This is a pretty embarrassing take. You can’t just make shit up and call it a day.

[PHLJD13]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

This is a pretty embarrassing take. You can’t just make shit up and call it a day.

Respectfully, nothing in this statement is in anyway made up. I lived in East Market, and walked the neighborhood daily, from 2018 – 2022, and eventually moved because the area became so deteriorated:

“the buildings grow more empty with leases expiring” FACT. Anyone who has spent any time on Filbert - Chestnut Streets, and 8th - 13th Streets, can attest to the high commercial vacancy rate.

“the failing mall” FACT. The Fashion District is a shell, barely half-leased, and PREIT has gone into bankruptcy (partially) as a result of it. That’s a pretty objective failure.

“every other month shootings” Exaggeration. I do not have facts and figures on shootings, but my lived experience confirms gunshots are a regular occurrence here. Of course, we all know not every discharged firearm is reported and duly investigated in this City.

“constant bum fights on Filbert” FACT. The 1000 block of Filbert Street is a de facto homeless encampment where tweakers and zombies abound.

“empty commercial strips of ghetto former gold stores” FACT. This exists on the eastside of 11th Street between Chestnut and Ludlow Streets, and on the southside of Market Street between 9th and 11th Streets.

“locked train station doors after 7PM” FACT. Good luck finding the one, revolving entrance to Jefferson Station that stays open between 7:00 p.m. – 7:00 a.m.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by PHLJD13

“every other month shootings” Exaggeration. I do not have facts and figures on shootings, but my lived experience confirms gunshots are a regular occurrence here. Of course, we all know not every discharged firearm is reported and duly investigated in this City.

thank you for providing some more firsthand knowledge. I was exaggerating on the violent crime point, but there’s been some really bad things happen this past year like the DJ being killed after the Phillies playoff game and the guy serving cheesesteaks being killed. I love Philadelphia and personally believe that the sky is the limit and it’s very much a “build it and they will come” type of place. Until some better alternative is proposed I’m all in on 76 Place.

[mja]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

thank you for providing some more firsthand knowledge. I was exaggerating on the violent crime point, but there’s been some really bad things happen this past year like the DJ being killed after the Phillies playoff game and the guy serving cheesesteaks being killed. I love Philadelphia and personally believe that the sky is the limit and it’s very much a “build it and they will come” type of place. Until some better alternative is proposed I’m all in on 76 Place.

The cheesesteak place incident was Old City, not Market East, and it was the type of idiotic testosterone display leading to manslaughter that can just as easily have happened in the burbs or any neighborhood in the city, not to mention that the perpetrator was a tourist. The DJ incident happened literally in the middle of Chinatown. Odd that you pick out two killings that did not happen in Market East to bemoan the fact that Market East is rife with violence.

Again, we all agree Market East is a problem. I'm unconvinced both that the arena will solve what ails it or on the other hand that it will somehow kill Chinatown. I think it's possible to have a well done arena at this location that truly is a boon to the city, and honestly if I had to pick a side I'd probably be pro-arena, but my faith in the Sixers ownership group to deliver on that potential is not terribly high.

[nemesisinphilly]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

No it's totally dead. They pulled permits in 2019 for it but haven't had anything since besides a bunch of trash violations from the city. If you live nearby, keep submitting the trash issues to 311 and Mark Squilla. The hope now is to force the property owner to sell it or develop it. I believe it was the same owner as Asian Bank who just opened a new bank at 7th and Passyunk by Royal Tavern but I'm not positive.

old permit: https://s3.amazonaws.com/lni-zoning-pdfs/27-396698.pdf

And the Midwood project at 9th and Washington is stalled as well. I think that one will probably start up once they finish their 12th and Locust tower and interest rates decline. It looks awful right now and displaced Anastasi Seafood.

1100 E Passyunk was sold after those designs/permits were made. Latest sale was in Oct 2020 to an LLC with the mailing address of a Cardiologist office at 18th and Oregon.

The Asian Bank spot is just straight up owned by Asian Bank, bought that at sheriff sale.

I would image 1100 EPA dead until rates improve.. was sold for 2.85 mil cash.

[SEFTA]

The "trickle down" theory;
"A 2022 study by prominent sports economists surveying three decades of research into the purported link between stadium construction and urban revival confirmed the “near-universal consensus evidence that sports venues do not generate large positive effects on local economies.” The study found that these projects redistribute existing spending rather than create infusions of wealth, and that the negative externalities of large arenas—like traffic, crowds, noise, litter, and crime—may mitigate any positive economic effects. Yet public funding has nonetheless increased. In moving their sights from pleasure domes to entire districts, bundling infrastructure upgrades and community spaces into the deal, developers have found a clever way to ask for more."
"As in Inglewood, the areas around the proposed stadiums in Nashville and St. Petersburg are historically Black and low-income neighborhoods, already victimized by decades of discriminatory housing policy and isolated by postwar highway construction. Housing advocacy groups in these cities have protested the use of public funding, warning of additional strain brought by rising property values and real-estate speculation on income-burdened communities."

SoFi-Stadium resized by , on Flickr

https://www.architecturalrecord.com/...gadevelopments

[PhillyPDX]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

The "trickle down" theory;
"A 2022 study by prominent sports economists surveying three decades of research into the purported link between stadium construction and urban revival confirmed the “near-universal consensus evidence that sports venues do not generate large positive effects on local economies.” The study found that these projects redistribute existing spending rather than create infusions of wealth, and that the negative externalities of large arenas—like traffic, crowds, noise, litter, and crime—may mitigate any positive economic effects. Yet public funding has nonetheless increased. In moving their sights from pleasure domes to entire districts, bundling infrastructure upgrades and community spaces into the deal, developers have found a clever way to ask for more."
"As in Inglewood, the areas around the proposed stadiums in Nashville and St. Petersburg are historically Black and low-income neighborhoods, already victimized by decades of discriminatory housing policy and isolated by postwar highway construction. Housing advocacy groups in these cities have protested the use of public funding, warning of additional strain brought by rising property values and real-estate speculation on income-burdened communities."

https://www.architecturalrecord.com/...gadevelopments

Honestly, besides owners everyone is suspect of taxpayer funded stadiums. But fandom is tough to overcome. How do you price in civic pride?

I'd like to see data. Camden yards area has less jobs? What does that even mean? Downtown? What kind of jobs? Without question it helped spur the entire development (gentrification) of that area. I had many friends that lived in Federal Hill and Fells Point, loathed the touristy parts of inner harbor, but absolutely connect to Camden Yards and loved walking to games (which I joined with them). How do you decouple that? Where would those neighborhoods be without Camden Yards? All the roof decks overlooking the harbor/stadium, clearly connect to it. The vibrancy to me was connected, regardless if they actually went to the tourist trap part.

Same for Denver. Long story short, one needs to look at stadiums on a case by case basis since there is incredible variability for individual circumstances, and include hard to measure concepts like civic pride. It matters.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

The "trickle down" theory;
"A 2022 study by prominent sports economists surveying three decades of research into the purported link between stadium construction and urban revival confirmed the “near-universal consensus evidence that sports venues do not generate large positive effects on local economies.” The study found that these projects redistribute existing spending rather than create infusions of wealth, and that the negative externalities of large arenas—like traffic, crowds, noise, litter, and crime—may mitigate any positive economic effects. Yet public funding has nonetheless increased. In moving their sights from pleasure domes to entire districts, bundling infrastructure upgrades and community spaces into the deal, developers have found a clever way to ask for more."
"As in Inglewood, the areas around the proposed stadiums in Nashville and St. Petersburg are historically Black and low-income neighborhoods, already victimized by decades of discriminatory housing policy and isolated by postwar highway construction. Housing advocacy groups in these cities have protested the use of public funding, warning of additional strain brought by rising property values and real-estate speculation on income-burdened communities."

https://www.architecturalrecord.com/...gadevelopments

It's insane that the article makes no differentiation between a football stadium, baseball stadium or an arena. This is just apples and oranges. It's so stupid to compare the results from a tax payer funded football stadium used 10 times a year in a sunbelt city to a privately funded downtown arena used 150+ times a year in a dense public transit assessable urban core. Downtown arenas in actual dense walkable cities often lead to booms nearby. Staples Center, Chase Center, Barclays Center, TD Garden, Little Caesar's, Rogers Place and Scotiabank Arena. All of these arenas in their various cities (LA, SF, NYC, Boston, Detroit, Edmonton and Toronto) have seen building booms around their arenas. Please go look on streeview of some of these arenas and go back to the earliest images from 2008.

Then factor in that Philadelphia's center city core around 11th and Market is perhaps the densest and most well connected public transit intersection in the entire country outside of NYC or Chicago. 14 regional rail lines, 5 MFL stations within a 10 minute walk, Patco, Broad-Ridge Spur and BSL Vine, Walnut-Locust and City Hall station are all 10 minute walks as well. TD Garden and Barlays Center should be the comparable study for that scenario. A brand new arena dropped in a transit hub. The results look pretty good to me...

Then you just need to consider the alternative. Market East is a fucking mess. Century 21, Target, Marshall's, Rite Aid, DSW, Starbucks, Burger King, Subway, Shoppers World and many other businesses nearby have closed in the last 5 years. Chestnut from 12th to 7th has been decimated. The entire south side of market from 11th to 8th is boarded up or rundown. There's massive empty lots at 13th and Market and 8th and Market. The fashion district won't be around another 5 years (which is why they're all in on the 76ers plan, it's on Macerich's website). It's good for Market East, good for the city and good for Septa.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

Looks more like the stadium complex than the dense, urban, highly transit accessible, not publicly funded, dying mall replacement the Sixers are planning.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

It's insane that the article makes no differentiation between a football stadium, baseball stadium or an arena. This is just apples and oranges. It's so stupid to compare the results from a tax payer funded football stadium used 10 times a year in a sunbelt city to a privately funded downtown arena used 150+ times a year in a dense public transit assessable urban core. Downtown arenas in actual dense walkable cities often lead to booms nearby. Staples Center, Chase Center, Barclays Center, TD Garden, Little Caesar's, Rogers Place and Scotiabank Arena. All of these arenas in their various cities (LA, SF, NYC, Boston, Detroit, Edmonton and Toronto) have seen building booms around their arenas. Please go look on streeview of some of these arenas and go back to the earliest images from 2008.

Then factor in that Philadelphia's center city core around 11th and Market is perhaps the densest and most well connected public transit intersection in the entire country outside of NYC or Chicago. 14 regional rail lines, 5 MFL stations within a 10 minute walk, Patco, Broad-Ridge Spur and BSL Vine, Walnut-Locust and City Hall station are all 10 minute walks as well. TD Garden and Barlays Center should be the comparable study for that scenario. A brand new arena dropped in a transit hub. The results look pretty good to me...

Then you just need to consider the alternative. Market East is a fucking mess. Century 21, Target, Marshall's, Rite Aid, DSW, Starbucks, Burger King, Subway, Shoppers World and many other businesses nearby have closed in the last 5 years. Chestnut from 12th to 7th has been decimated. The entire south side of market from 11th to 8th is boarded up or rundown. There's massive empty lots at 13th and Market and 8th and Market. The fashion district won't be around another 5 years (which is why they're all in on the 76ers plan, it's on Macerich's website). It's good for Market East, good for the city and good for Septa.

I lived walking distance to what is now the Barclays center. It was a desolate, sketch area with some mid-level retail like Old Navy and Circuit City. It did have the Atlantic Ave MTA stop and the LIRR there, though. I don't know if that development was because of Barclays or if it was gonna happen anyway (I feel like maybe the latter) but that area is WAY nicer now than it ever was back in 2000.

Don't forget the WAWA that closed. That was a real shocker for the area. It was essentially a brand new store.

All the examples of major arena developments and their economic impacts on surrounding areas are not direct comparisons. This is a highly unique site and offers an opportunity to dramatically improve an essential stretch or retail/tourism in a major East coast powerhouse city. I honestly can not understand the opposition to this.

[Skintreesnail]

I think Chinatown residents have legitimate concerns to a certain extent, but it's something that they should be taking the time now to address and get some compromises in place. They have some pull now that they should be putting towards that instead of fighting it altogether.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

It's insane that the article makes no differentiation between a football stadium, baseball stadium or an arena. This is just apples and oranges. It's so stupid to compare the results from a tax payer funded football stadium used 10 times a year in a sunbelt city to a privately funded downtown arena used 150+ times a year in a dense public transit assessable urban core. Downtown arenas in actual dense walkable cities often lead to booms nearby. Staples Center, Chase Center, Barclays Center, TD Garden, Little Caesar's, Rogers Place and Scotiabank Arena. All of these arenas in their various cities (LA, SF, NYC, Boston, Detroit, Edmonton and Toronto) have seen building booms around their arenas. Please go look on streeview of some of these arenas and go back to the earliest images from 2008.

Then factor in that Philadelphia's center city core around 11th and Market is perhaps the densest and most well connected public transit intersection in the entire country outside of NYC or Chicago. 14 regional rail lines, 5 MFL stations within a 10 minute walk, Patco, Broad-Ridge Spur and BSL Vine, Walnut-Locust and City Hall station are all 10 minute walks as well. TD Garden and Barlays Center should be the comparable study for that scenario. A brand new arena dropped in a transit hub. The results look pretty good to me...

Then you just need to consider the alternative. Market East is a fucking mess. Century 21, Target, Marshall's, Rite Aid, DSW, Starbucks, Burger King, Subway, Shoppers World and many other businesses nearby have closed in the last 5 years. Chestnut from 12th to 7th has been decimated. The entire south side of market from 11th to 8th is boarded up or rundown. There's massive empty lots at 13th and Market and 8th and Market. The fashion district won't be around another 5 years (which is why they're all in on the 76ers plan, it's on Macerich's website). It's good for Market East, good for the city and good for Septa.

I agree with everything you said. I will, however, defend Market East a bit. The mall...is OK. AMC is great, Primark is great, Round One if you have kids is fine. H&M if you have kids is great. East Market is arguably the best development in the city in like 30 years - the pedestrian strip w/ Wayward, Mulherins, Iron Hill is a world class. The convention center building w/ Hard Rock is stunning and always packed + Reading Terminal + LIT/Five Below HQ...

Are there issues and Disneyholes? Sure. But a lot of people unreasonably make it sound like it's a zombie apocalypse down there and it's not the case or productive.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Londonee

I agree with everything you said. I will, however, defend Market East a bit. The mall...is OK. AMC is great, Primark is great, Round One if you have kids is fine. H&M if you have kids is great. East Market is arguably the best development in the city in like 30 years - the pedestrian strip w/ Wayward, Mulherins, Iron Hill is a world class. The convention center building w/ Hard Rock is stunning and always packed + Reading Terminal + LIT/Five Below HQ...

Are there issues and Disneyholes? Sure. But a lot of people unreasonably make it sound like it's a zombie apocalypse down there and it's not the case or productive.

I agree. It's really only the south side of Market from 11th to 7th. That includes the Disney hole that wont be touched as long as Goldenberg owns it. So it's really only about 2.5 blocks and the entire stretch is close to done.

I just don't think there will be a catalyst for that to happen unless it's something like the arena.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by Londonee

I agree with everything you said. I will, however, defend Market East a bit. The mall...is OK. AMC is great, Primark is great, Round One if you have kids is fine. H&M if you have kids is great. East Market is arguably the best development in the city in like 30 years - the pedestrian strip w/ Wayward, Mulherins, Iron Hill is a world class. The convention center building w/ Hard Rock is stunning and always packed + Reading Terminal + LIT/Five Below HQ...

Are there issues and Disneyholes? Sure. But a lot of people unreasonably make it sound like it's a zombie apocalypse down there and it's not the case or productive.

I wouldn't call the convention center "stunning." It's nice inside and outside architecturally but there's always 20 homeless people camped out under the overpasses. Yes there's been a lot of good stuff happen, mostly all East Market by National Realty but they've moved on to southern Northern Liberties. No one is coming to invest in Market East, especially not 1.5 billion. It's not always a zombie zone but it often is. Go to 10th and Market at 11:00 PM on Tuesday in February...it's a zombie zone. Every bus stop is someone sleeping, covered it litter and piss while scared tourists try and make it back to the Marriott.

Now imagine the 76ers just played a home game and 20,000 people just let out onto the street. Some will walk to their car, some will walk to Iron Hill, some will go to Chinatown to do karaoke, some will go right to Jefferson station, some will walk to the El. Even if it's only 5000 people that do that, it's still 5000 more people than it would have been there otherwise. Foot traffic will improve the area.

You also named the Lit store as a plus? Yes, the building is stunning but it's a dumpy Ross. That's the whole point, Market East is a dumpy but should be nice. In Boston, NYC, SF or Chicago a building that beautiful would be a high end retail, office or apartments.

I agree the Fashion District is fine. The inside is nice but it's half full. The 76ers cutting the rental space in half while adding more foot traffic is exactly what it needs to survive. 76ers games and concerts will bring so many more people to the Nike Store, Foot Locker, the food court etc.

And Redddog is right, the 76ers are the catalyst. This area will remain the same or worse for the next 20 years otherwise.

[Knight Hospitaller]

The part of the Gallery that's going to be demolished is probably the most engaging. Push the Sixers to build a replacement directly across Market and it's a win all the way around. Macerich already owns that block, correct?