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  #21  
Old Posted May 23, 2024, 1:35 PM
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$1,400 for a 2-bed is way below market rent. Most 2-beds in Toronto are going for closer to $3,000 now - smaller ones for a bit less, nicer ones for a bit more. $1,400 is way below market for even 10 years ago, yet alone today.

Downtown Toronto's traffic is awful as it has very limited auto infrastructure and what little it does have the City seems determined to rip out. I would generally advise not driving there at all, if you can avoid it.

The Gardiner itself is in the middle of a 10-year reconstruction which isn't helping - it's just unbelievably terrible to drive around downtown right now. Like comically, terribly, unbelievably bad. The amount of construction downtown is just destroying it between the Ontario Line and Gardiner construction, basically half the streets in the city are closed or heavily restricted.

Exhibition / Liberty Village is an especially bad spot as it has basically terrible transit too. The Ontario Line is a new subway line getting built to it which should make it a bit better, but that won't open for another 6-8 years.

The rest of the GTA is more typically American traffic on freeways, but it's also very bad - like LA levels, if not worse as there has been little in capacity expansion while the GTA grows by a quarter million a year. And yet local politics still talk about cancelling the few capacity projects that actually are underway.
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  #22  
Old Posted May 23, 2024, 2:24 PM
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From the Canada Forum:

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Originally Posted by haljackey View Post
More graphs!

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  #23  
Old Posted May 23, 2024, 2:38 PM
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What's driving the relative growth in Halifax? It seems like an outlier for the Canadian Maritimes.
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  #24  
Old Posted May 23, 2024, 2:48 PM
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It doesn't really make sense to compare transnational when the methodologies for the annual estimates aren't aligned. You're comparing two datasets with different inputs. Also the U.S. annual estimates have been outrageously bad in recent years compared to the official decennial counts.

But I get it. There isn't really anything else at this point, and it's fun to compare.
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  #25  
Old Posted May 23, 2024, 3:04 PM
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What's driving the relative growth in Halifax? It seems like an outlier for the Canadian Maritimes.
It is the alpha city (if there is one) for the Maritime Provinces, by quite a large margin.
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  #26  
Old Posted May 23, 2024, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
You should check out the traffic. LA traffic is a comparative breeze.

I was at a wedding last summer, near downtown, in an area called Exhibition Place, maybe a mile from our downtown hotel. Traveling back and forth about a half-dozen times, over a normal weekend, no major city events, took over an hour every single time.

There's basically one small freeway serving the core, and it's perpetually u/c. There are no other major arterials anywhere around the core. E-W travel absolutely sucks. N-S not as bad.
It's funny you say that because just a couple days ago I was talking to a coworker who had recently gotten back from a week long trip to Toronto to visit friends. The first thing he said when I asked how he liked his time in Toronto was "it was a nice city but oh my god the traffic is next level." He said it was worse than anything he'd ever seen here in LA, and it prevented him from doing some of the stuff he had planned to do. He said the freeways were like the 405 at rush hour but all the time, and the surface streets were also gridlocked throughout the downtown area. Probably 3 of the 5 minutes he spent talking about his trip was devoted to bemoaning the traffic! You know traffic is a problem when even a lifelong Angeleno is gobsmacked by it.
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  #27  
Old Posted May 23, 2024, 5:06 PM
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Yeah it was the same for me back in 2021. We stayed at the Cambridge Suites on Richmond and mostly got around by walking. But we decided to go to Wonderland (amusement park) on the edge of town at one point so we decided to drive. We left at around 2pm to get ahead of the evening rush, but ended up spending TWO HOURS just trying to get onto the Gardiner which was under 1km away. By the time we got to the on-ramp it was so late we just turned around and went back. Went the next day and left a lot earlier lol.
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  #28  
Old Posted May 23, 2024, 5:26 PM
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Toronto traffic is horrific. One would be advised to avoid the freeways for much of the day (and night).
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  #29  
Old Posted May 23, 2024, 5:32 PM
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Canadian cities on average have way worse traffic than one would expect. This ranges from the obvious biggest ones but it's also pretty bad in mid-sized cities like Ottawa and even those one rung lower like Halifax.

When I'm abroad in megacities I am often bracing myself for horrendous traffic delays and I almost always find myself saying "well, it's no so bad compared to home".
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  #30  
Old Posted May 23, 2024, 5:51 PM
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I've learned not to trust mapping apps for route selection in central Toronto that much - especially leaving downtown. They don't really seem to understand travel differences on Lakeshore vs Gardiner, the former of which can be faster if you're headed to the West End and stick to the left lane (avoiding congestion at the Gardiner onramps). Richmond/Adelaide can often also be faster than trying to wait and get on the Gardiner right in the core.

When I lived in Johannesburg the biggest complaint (even before crime) was usually traffic. It could be pretty bad especially when traffic lights were out, but coming from Toronto I honestly found it pretty easy to deal with. Interestingly enough my uncle from Toronto who's lived in Sydney for the past 35 years noted that the traffic there is particularly awful, but that Toronto has recently "caught up" in this respect.
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  #31  
Old Posted May 23, 2024, 5:55 PM
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Crazy population growth without the infrastructure growth to match will do that. Road & highway capacity hasn't really grown much in the past 50 years while the population has more than doubled in the same time. Transit expansion hasn't been enough to pick up the slack as it's always been a few steps behind what's currently needed.


Personally, I've never found Toronto's traffic that intolerable, but my frame of reference is probably a few years out of date, and/or I mostly drove off-peak and not in the core or on the highways. Still, bikes & subways are really the only reliable way to get around there.

Vancouver is similar, the average city streets mostly aren't too bad most of the time, but any of the choke points - bridges, tunnels, the one freeway - can be impassable at times. The worst thing though is just trying to find parking at any nice beach, river, trail, or other natural feature within an hour of the city on a weekend. The population keeps growing, but Vancouver's prized natural amenities stay the same.
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  #32  
Old Posted May 23, 2024, 6:03 PM
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Toronto traffic has gotten immensely worse in the last 5 years. Even 5 years ago it was a lot more manageable - the really miserable parts were mostly limited around Gardiner on and off ramps and richmond / adelaide through the downtown during peak rush hour.

The miserable traffic now stretches across most of the downtown for most of the day, and freeway congestion has gotten unbelievably terrible. Even in the 2014-2016ish era traffic on the freeway system pretty much disappeared midday and in the evenings - today it's all day long for a good chunk of the network and extends deep into the evening hours. It also extends much further outside of the city. It's not uncommon for the QEW to be congested from the 427 to St. Catharines 90 kilometres away in rush hour now. It's unbelievable, and a big reason I think Ford remains so popular on the provincial level. He talks the talk on highways which the other parties are completely ignorant to, even if his actual spending on the matter is actually pretty small.

The freeway congestion is mostly volume related to growth - but the downtown traffic has gotten insane mostly because of construction. The Gardiner construction and construction on the streets in the city for things like the Ontario Line and other works have made it unbelievably bad. The good news is that it will eventually end.. but it's going to be years before it's done.

The regional congestion on the freeway network has no real end in sight. MTO has plans for widening a lot of highways, but isn't getting funding for much of any of them and most of the big projects seem years and years off, even optimistically.
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  #33  
Old Posted May 23, 2024, 6:17 PM
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My last time in Toronto when I was auto-dependent (had no choice due to family) was an almost identical experience to Crawford's, involving driving between the inner west end (Liberty Village - Exhibition Place area) and downtown.

Even at 11 pm on a random weeknight with nothing going on the roads were just packed and it would take us almost an hour to drive 5 km.
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  #34  
Old Posted May 23, 2024, 7:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Toronto traffic has gotten immensely worse in the last 5 years. Even 5 years ago it was a lot more manageable - the really miserable parts were mostly limited around Gardiner on and off ramps and richmond / adelaide through the downtown during peak rush hour.

The miserable traffic now stretches across most of the downtown for most of the day, and freeway congestion has gotten unbelievably terrible. Even in the 2014-2016ish era traffic on the freeway system pretty much disappeared midday and in the evenings - today it's all day long for a good chunk of the network and extends deep into the evening hours. It also extends much further outside of the city. It's not uncommon for the QEW to be congested from the 427 to St. Catharines 90 kilometres away in rush hour now. It's unbelievable, and a big reason I think Ford remains so popular on the provincial level. He talks the talk on highways which the other parties are completely ignorant to, even if his actual spending on the matter is actually pretty small.

The freeway congestion is mostly volume related to growth - but the downtown traffic has gotten insane mostly because of construction. The Gardiner construction and construction on the streets in the city for things like the Ontario Line and other works have made it unbelievably bad. The good news is that it will eventually end.. but it's going to be years before it's done.

The regional congestion on the freeway network has no real end in sight. MTO has plans for widening a lot of highways, but isn't getting funding for much of any of them and most of the big projects seem years and years off, even optimistically.
I'm cautiously optimistic that congestion will improve, maybe even dramatically, over the next 10 years - especially in the dreaded east-west direction.

The problem right now is that the GTA is still car-oriented, where you'd want a car for anything except to-downtown and within-downtown trips, but there's been no investment in highway capacity for over 30 years, notwithstanding the tolled 407. Between the early 1990s and, say, 2009 it was mostly because of austerity, and since 2009 it has been mostly ideological. Ford will probably break this logjam by building both highways and transit in equal measure*.

But, more crucially, almost all of the major projects are attempting to resolve the problem of east-west travel:

For new transit:
- Ontario Line
- GO RER + new inner city stations
- Eglinton Crosstown

And on the highway side of things:
- Highway 413
- Bradford Bypass
- MTO uploading the Gardiner-DVP. Things probably won't change a lot in the first few decades, but it's good that a regionally-significant highway is in provincial hands. The City of Toronto really can't see beyond its own borders.

The rate of growth is a big variable, but once these projects are in place we could support a lot more east-west travel than what exists now.

*Cities that pay lip service to both public transit and private cars don't usually have massive periods of investment catering to one mode or the other. So, if you look at places like Madrid or Chinese cities in the early-2000s, or Canadian cities in the 1960s, there was a lot of highway and subway construction going on at the same time.
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  #35  
Old Posted May 23, 2024, 8:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Canadian cities on average have way worse traffic than one would expect. This ranges from the obvious biggest ones but it's also pretty bad in mid-sized cities like Ottawa and even those one rung lower like Halifax.

When I'm abroad in megacities I am often bracing myself for horrendous traffic delays and I almost always find myself saying "well, it's no so bad compared to home".
One good thing I can say about dealing withToronto is that it takes about 6 months of being back home before I start complaining about our traffic again.
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  #36  
Old Posted May 23, 2024, 8:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
From the Canada Forum:
That graph should be properly headed (SELECTED METROS) as it omits loads of Canadian metros. These 14 CMAs below were omitted and all grew faster than Toronto; (listed as 6th fastest growing. All 40 Canadian CMAs posted a faster population growth rate than Atlanta. Only 4 grew slower than 2%: Victoria (1.89%), Saguenay (1.88%), Hamilton (1.63%), and Thunder Bay (1.40%).


Moncton: 6.14%
Saskatoon: 4.81%
Peterborough: 4.16%
Regina: 4.06%
Fredericton: 3.97%
Halifax: 3.96%
Brantford: 3.90%
London: 3.80%
Oshawa: 3.71%
Barrie: 3.64%
St.Catharines-Niagara: 3.52%
Windsor: 3.49%
Lethbridge: 3.43%
Red Deer: 3.41%
TORONTO: 3.37%
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Last edited by isaidso; May 23, 2024 at 9:05 PM.
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  #37  
Old Posted May 23, 2024, 11:33 PM
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All the cities around Hamilton, Ont. are showing decent growth. I think it only a matter of time before it's growth rate begins to rise, especially with the uptick in residential construction in and around the city for the past 2-3 years.
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  #38  
Old Posted May 24, 2024, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Canadian cities on average have way worse traffic than one would expect. This ranges from the obvious biggest ones but it's also pretty bad in mid-sized cities like Ottawa and even those one rung lower like Halifax.

When I'm abroad in megacities I am often bracing myself for horrendous traffic delays and I almost always find myself saying "well, it's no so bad compared to home".
Is traffic bad in Winnipeg also?
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  #39  
Old Posted May 24, 2024, 4:03 AM
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Also, these are Canadian CMA boundaries, which are more conservative than the American equivalent.

Metro-Vancouver is now officially over 2.9 million, but using US style boundaries it would definitely include Abbotsford CMA and Chilliwack CMA and a few other smaller surrounding communities, giving it around 3.4 million (if you want to do an apples to apples comparison with American metro area populations)
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  #40  
Old Posted May 24, 2024, 11:37 AM
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Is traffic bad in Winnipeg also?
The Prairie cities tend to be the notable exceptions. Traffic is generally a bit better there. They have more road capacity relative to population and there are fewer geographic barriers like big and small waterways, hills, etc.
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