Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[i-215]

Originally Posted by wrendog

#TeamRyanSmith

Just what a billionaire needs.

Poor, helpless billionaire.

#teamSLC

[Paniolo Man]

Originally Posted by i-215

Do I, though? I mean, Seattle didn't exactly die when the Supersonics left.

Sports teams bring in some nice spikes in customer traffic. But you know what generates constant customer traffic?

Residential

When people live in the city, they spend money every day — not just on game days.

Look at downtown Los Angeles: Sure, LA Live (the area around the arena) is great. But downtown LA is a ghost town despite it because there's inadequate residential development there.

Look at Brooklyn: Are you telling me that Brooklyn was a ghost town before 2012 when the Nets moved in from New Jersey? Brooklyn thrives as a healthy urban environment because of residential.

Look at Seattle: NO NBA team plays at Climate Pledge (Amazon) Arena. The area is doing fine because people actually live in Seattle.

----

SLC is falling for the same sorry shtick that billionaires have used over and over again to extract wealth from the communities they claim to be helping. Smith Entertainment Group (SEG) wants to extract money from SLC, not invest in it. True investment means losing money. Larry H. Miller seemed to be okay with losing money on his ventures (e.g. the race track in Tooele). Smith wants to make money. I don't trust him.

But it's not bad enough that he suckered the legislature into handing him their checkbook. He wants to demolish a perfectly good convention center and symphony hall... when there are still EFFING SURFACE PARKING LOTS in the city.

No. No way. This is BS. Like 1960s-era "let's demolish half the city to fight blight"-level BS. And you guys are just letting this happen?

---

Here's what's going to happen: (and yes, I will quote this post in 3-4 years when it does)

• Smith is going to sucker the city into handing him carte blanche zoning power
• Smith is going to promise the world
• Smith is going to demolish the 2 blocks
• Tech will tumble. Smith will lose money
• Smith will abandon the project ("Sugar Hole" style) saying "changing market conditions, blah blah blah..."
• Smith abandons SLC, sells the team to St. Louis or something
• The LDS church bails out the project (Triad Center style)
• The LDS church now owns the public property we used to have a perfectly good convention center and symphony hall

I'm not "anti-entertainment district." We DO need to set CLEAR and demanding expectations now. We need to make sure increase public ownership of this project now; not just give handouts to a billionaire. And on the trajectory we're on right now, we're headed for a disaster for Salt Lake City. Remember, Ryan Smith doesn't live downtown. He's a suburb guy. If he were serious about downtown, he'd move Qualtrics into downtown SLC. But I don't hear any talk of that!

SLC has 99 problems: homelessness, affordability, sustainable economic activity, etc. Making Smith happy is not one of 'em!

I agree. If we must spend public money, don't give a dime to Smith. Give it to the County to fix up Abravanel and Salt Palace. Make Smith spend his own money on the arena and development.

Something about the way this is all playing out is just so fishy. Promises mean nothing, Smith will promise the world to get what he wants with no real obligation to deliver.

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by i-215

#teamSLC

Exactly. That's what I said!

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by i-215

Do I, though? I mean, Seattle didn't exactly die when the Supersonics left.

Sports teams bring in some nice spikes in customer traffic. But you know what generates constant customer traffic?

This is a horrible comparison, tho.

Downtown Seattle lost the Sonics - and still had the Mariners and Seahawks located ... downtown.

What does Salt Lake have in this scenario that is remotely comparable to Seattle?

Hell, a year from now, they won't even have the Bees. Maybe they get a MLB team. Maybe not.

Bottom line, tho: your comparison is not equal. Salt Lake losing the Jazz and the main arena downtown to the suburbs would mean a ton of activity that comes into the city, either for the Jazz or things held at the Delta Center, would instantly stop.

Salt Lake knows what it needs my dude. Ryan Smith didn't come to Salt Lake asking to build downtown and then threaten to leave if they didn't give him what he wanted. Salt Lake went to him because he was initially not interested in building downtown. They understand what they will likely be looking at losing if the Jazz bail on the city for Sandy or wherever.

[RC14]

Originally Posted by i-215

..But you know what generates constant customer traffic?

Residential

..which is going to be part of this project and something that currently doesn't exist on those blocks.

With this project we will have more residential, more hotels, an updated convention center, more nightlife, the NHL and we keep the Jazz. Without it, we loose the Jazz and don't gain anything.

And no, Ryan Smith is not threatening the city. Every rumor coming out of the Smith organization has said that Smith hates driving to Salt Lake, doesn't want to be there and planned to build in the suburbs. If anything, I think he's just waiting for an excuse to say "We tried to build downtown, it didn't work, we're going down south."

[bob rulz]

Yeah I'm not a fan of giving tax breaks to billionaires, but on the other hand, I don't think this is a case of Ryan Smith bullying the city. This wasn't his first choice - he's building here because the Utah legislature (shockingly) passed a bill giving him big benefits to building downtown. I don't think we're just going to give Ryan Smith whatever he wants.

And you speak of this being a repeat of urban "renewal" of the 1960s-70s but that isn't right at all. These blocks are a result of that original urban renewal. They're dead zones in the city that hamper connectivity. And there's currently 0 residential on these blocks as is - all signs point to residential coming to these blocks as part of this redevelopment. So I just don't see your fears about that coming to fruition i-215. I think there's too many parties invested in this happening for it to end up sitting vacant for a decade or more.

[msbutah]

I will say that I find it laughable that everyone plays "Monopoly man with empty pockets" whenever it comes to the issue of affordable housing, or homelessness, or transit development, or education funding, or the obscenity that is school lunch debt. But hey, shiny NHL team, better open up 30 years of guaranteed sales tax income pipeline. And sure, all this downtown development will create jobs and economic activity beyond its initial outlay. None of which ever seems to find its way back to that long list of issues we side stepped.

[Blah_Amazing]

• Video Link

While I don't agree with all of his concerns, this video is a good summary of all the different local news coverage related to the district.

[i-215]

Fair points from all.

I hate being the "NIMBY" in this case. It just feels weird for me to be on the other side of a development issue for a change.

I'm still bummed that the Jazz (who were in a legacy trust) got sold to Ryan Smith. While he's a reasonable owner (for now), I still have a sinking pit in my stomach that his ownership is a time bomb that we're all going to pay for dearly later. And the speed of the city/state's response to his self-imposed "crisis" is troubling.

Perhaps that feeling is skewing my viewpoint on this issue. But I see what I see, I guess.

[Juancrocco]

Originally Posted by i-215

Do I, though? I mean, Seattle didn't exactly die when the Supersonics left.

Sports teams bring in some nice spikes in customer traffic. But you know what generates constant customer traffic?

Residential

When people live in the city, they spend money every day — not just on game days.

Look at downtown Los Angeles: Sure, LA Live (the area around the arena) is great. But downtown LA is a ghost town despite it because there's inadequate residential development there.

Look at Brooklyn: Are you telling me that Brooklyn was a ghost town before 2012 when the Nets moved in from New Jersey? Brooklyn thrives as a healthy urban environment because of residential.

Look at Seattle: NO NBA team plays at Climate Pledge (Amazon) Arena. The area is doing fine because people actually live in Seattle.

----

SLC is falling for the same sorry shtick that billionaires have used over and over again to extract wealth from the communities they claim to be helping. Smith Entertainment Group (SEG) wants to extract money from SLC, not invest in it. True investment means losing money. Larry H. Miller seemed to be okay with losing money on his ventures (e.g. the race track in Tooele). Smith wants to make money. I don't trust him.

But it's not bad enough that he suckered the legislature into handing him their checkbook. He wants to demolish a perfectly good convention center and symphony hall... when there are still EFFING SURFACE PARKING LOTS in the city.

No. No way. This is BS. Like 1960s-era "let's demolish half the city to fight blight"-level BS. And you guys are just letting this happen?

---

Here's what's going to happen: (and yes, I will quote this post in 3-4 years when it does)

• Smith is going to sucker the city into handing him carte blanche zoning power
• Smith is going to promise the world
• Smith is going to demolish the 2 blocks
• Tech will tumble. Smith will lose money
• Smith will abandon the project ("Sugar Hole" style) saying "changing market conditions, blah blah blah..."
• Smith abandons SLC, sells the team to St. Louis or something
• The LDS church bails out the project (Triad Center style)
• The LDS church now owns the public property we used to have a perfectly good convention center and symphony hall

I'm not "anti-entertainment district." We DO need to set CLEAR and demanding expectations now. We need to make sure increase public ownership of this project now; not just give handouts to a billionaire. And on the trajectory we're on right now, we're headed for a disaster for Salt Lake City. Remember, Ryan Smith doesn't live downtown. He's a suburb guy. If he were serious about downtown, he'd move Qualtrics into downtown SLC. But I don't hear any talk of that!

SLC has 99 problems: homelessness, affordability, sustainable economic activity, etc. Making Smith happy is not one of 'em!

This prediction couldn’t be more wrong. I used to work at Qualtrics and the vibrancy of SLC is extremely important to hiring, particularly for senior leadership. Many employees lived downtown and all employees looked at SLC as part of whether or not they would move to Utah. Without a strong and vibrant SLC many tech companies up and down I-15 would struggle to recruit exec-level talent. Because whether or not the office is in Layton, Draper, Lehi, or Provo they can always point to SLC being up the road for whatever they are looking for. See you in three years.

[Rileybo]

Photo bump

Tons of fun at the Kilby Block Party this weekend. Santigold, Death Cab for Cutie, and The Postal Service killed it last night.

[Nebula3lem123]

Originally Posted by i-215

I hate being the "NIMBY" in this case. It just feels weird for me to be on the other side of a development issue for a change.

Feel that, as a big transit guy who tends to disagree with you, it does seem weird to be agreeing with you as much as I am. Strange times lead to strange friends it seems.

A lot of people don't seem to understand that downtown has been thriving compared to most downtowns post-covid, and with all of the new development it's continuing to get better. As good as the Jazz and sports in general are to this city, we will do relatively fine without them, we have a top-tier university, great museums, a large convention center (albeit should be consolidated into 1 or 2 blocks), an amazing symphony, interesting history, pretty good art, and sighs the church, all of which provide interest and tourism to the city.

On the other hand, the Jazz, and any other major league team in Utah, NEED to be downtown, SLC or otherwise. I can't shake what Shaq said about SLC out of my head whenever this discussion comes up. If SLC is boring for people from elsewhere, how much worse will Draper be? Or Lehi? or South Jordan?

With all of this in mind, we cannot give Ryan Smith whatever he wants, not unless it benefits the city. If Smith leaves, I have my doubts that the Jazz or our new NHL team will succeed. As much as I'm pro-NHL or pro-Investment, we need to leverage what we have as much as Smith is leveraging what he does.

[Rileybo]

Originally Posted by Nebula3lem123

With all of this in mind, we cannot give Ryan Smith whatever he wants, not unless it benefits the city. If Smith leaves, I have my doubts that the Jazz or our new NHL team will succeed. As much as I'm pro-NHL or pro-Investment, we need to leverage what we have as much as Smith is leveraging what he does.

It will benefit the city, and Smith has a LOT more leverage than the city does. He has really no personal reason to keep his teams downtown. It’s much easier for Smith to build in the burbs.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Rileybo

It will benefit the city, and Smith has a LOT more leverage than the city does. He has really no personal reason to keep his teams downtown. It’s much easier for Smith to build in the burbs.

Right. Smith wasn't threatening Salt Lake. This isn't a situation where he was like, "I may have to move the team to the suburbs if Salt Lake doesn't pony up the money..."

It was basically, "I am moving the team to the suburbs. That's my plan..."

And Salt Lake, along with the legislature, decided to fight to convince him to stay.

I know they seem the same but they're not. Situations like the first scenario is where the team prefers to stay downtown - it's clear Smith preferred to leave downtown and this is Salt Lake's way of convincing him to stay.

[Nebula3lem123]

Exactly, and I see and understand your points here, my thoughts are that we should be careful about what we may sacrifice for major league teams, especially when entertainment districts can and should be possible without demolishing existing places. I'm biased towards Abravanel hall here, I won't deny that, but I think Smith will have more success in a downtown that preserves the hall, even just the interior, instead of one that paves over it. This, in my opinion, applies to City Creek, the Gateway, or the Art Museum because of the traffic they bring, and maybe less so to the Salt Palace, since convention centers are more replaceable in my opinion. Smith may know this, or he may not, I'm just worried that if we don't tell him that or if we don't give the public any actual decision making power, he may hurt what we have in the process of creating this district. No matter what happens, this will be a net positive in my eyes, but I also think that we should make whatever Smith does as good as it can be while sacrificing the least.

[Enemy4thePeople]

Originally Posted by msbutah

I will say that I find it laughable that everyone plays "Monopoly man with empty pockets" whenever it comes to the issue of affordable housing, or homelessness, or transit development, or education funding, or the obscenity that is school lunch debt. But hey, shiny NHL team, better open up 30 years of guaranteed sales tax income pipeline. And sure, all this downtown development will create jobs and economic activity beyond its initial outlay. None of which ever seems to find its way back to that long list of issues we side stepped.

It's the same play every time. Just like floating the idea of moving the Jazz. The playbook isn't that deep because the same plays work the same way every single time. I don't know what it is about the weirdo Puritanism this country so loves, but everyone is always happy to throw money at the rich and tell the poor they're better off dead.

[Rileybo]

If sports leave downtown, downtown will become developmentally and culturally stunted for the foreseeable future. If the Jazz moved shop, there’s zero chance SLC would gain any other teams in coming decades. That’s no NFL or MLB or anything, they’ll all play in the burbs if they came here. We’d miss out on potential Fortune 500 companies, (who prefer cities with sports and healthy downtown cores for their employees) countless huge acts that would’ve happened at the Delta Center, the area surrounding the arena would remain dead and underdeveloped, tourism would shrink causing every restaurant, hotel, and retail store to suffer, and we’d never grow beyond being known throughout the country as a “boring ass city”.

If the city doesn’t work with Smith, it loses so much and gains nothing.

[Nebula3lem123]

After today's City Cast Salt Lake episode, I'm much more confident that the city counsel will be able to negotiate with Smith to get the best entertainment district we can while sacrificing the least, both because of the counsel's hard work and because Smith seems pretty amiable to suggestions in their eyes. So it seems I was assuming the worst, when we should be much more hopeful about the outcome.

[Juancrocco]

Originally Posted by Nebula3lem123

After today's City Cast Salt Lake episode, I'm much more confident that the city counsel will be able to negotiate with Smith to get the best entertainment district we can while sacrificing the least, both because of the counsel's hard work and because Smith seems pretty amiable to suggestions in their eyes. So it seems I was assuming the worst, when we should be much more hopeful about the outcome.

I like this take and have felt similarly the more I’ve heard from all the stakeholders.

[i-215]

SLC gave away a street to the LDS Church because of an "urgent need"

Provo gave away a street to NuSkin because of an "urgent need"

Provo gave away a street to the LDS Church because of an "urgent need"

Now we're basically giving away 2 blocks to SEG for an "urgent need" (and a symphony hall, for the hell of it)

I'm sorry. Giving away public goods to billionaires is regressive policy and absoultely bull shit. I can't afford a house anywhere west of Kansas. Investors are gobbling up everything. But hey, sure, let's keep doubling down on the garbage 1980s corporate welfare mindset. I'm sure SLC will benefit this time. We all know LA Live fixed homelessness and cured the area around Staples from all its social ills /s.

Slapping a few SEG luxury condos on top ("for the workers") does nothing to address this city's REAL problems.