Canada's 4th city

[ssiguy]

In Canada, our 3 most important cities of Tor/Mon/Van are obvious but what about #4? Ottawa, Edmonton, and Calgary are all about the same size and each has areas where they excel and gain prominence.

Edmonton is a provincial capital and unlike the other 2, has a highly diversified economy and the most prestigious university. Ottawa is the national capital with all the government offices, agencies, and international recognition that comes with. Calgary is an economic and head office powerhouse as well as being a major transportation and logistical centre.

I am NOT talking about quality of life here as everyone has a different view on what makes up a high quality of life very much depending on their socio-economic status, political persuasions, lifestyles, and values. I am talking strictly about the city's importance on the national scene.

I will save my opinion on it till later but for now, if you guys were asked by a foreigner what is Canada's most important city is after the big 3, how would you respond?

[Architype]

That's easy, even though we are lucky to have a trifecta of fourth place cities, it's obviously Calgary (named after an obscure place in Scotland). But remember, if Quebec separates, Vancouver will be number two, and Calgary number three. You won't start many arguments here, as Canadians we don't really care that much, we are a post-nationalist country.

[biguc]

Nice of you to include Edmonton in the conversation. I'll be cheering for the upset..

It'll probably be Ottawa. Ottawa is a microcosm of other bits of Canada you don't really get in the top three--Northern Ontario, provincial Quebec, a homely mid-sized city. It's also the capital, which will never not be a thing. All of the above may make Ottawa boring, but it's actually growing in more interesting ways than Calgary. Zibi and LeBreton Flats--especially if the CCR's mercurial children do the right thing and build the Hull-Ottawa tram loop--will transform the city. I don't know if there's another capital city with a neighbourhood built around a waterfall with sweeping views to the capital buildings perched on a cliff. For all that Ottawa, looking at it from its own downtown, never made sense as a capital city, reorienting its centre over the river makes it make sense.

Calgary, on the other hand, is kind of fun. Trashy and embarrassing, but kind fun. Calgary is basically a creature of the oil industry (bad guys have historically been fun) and its airport, which is a creature of Banff, which is fun. Point is, it makes a good impression in ways we'd probably underrate.

We'll see what happens though. People might like dating Calgary, but once the pipeline work dries up you're left with a VLT-addicted cokehead and that charming tips-the-cowboy-hat thing isn't far removed from tipping a fedora anyway, milady.

Ottawa is probably better positioned to grow into a big city. It has a bigger urban, compared to suburban, footprint, which means it has more space to upzone and grow before it's hemmed in by curvilinear streets, cul-de-sacs, and high-speed roadways. Ottawa's new metro service may have its growing pains, but it's better set up to work as a regional connector, serving a large population, compared to Calgary's mini-commuter trains. We'll see how important that kind of service even is when downtown office jobs aren't. Calgary also made a lot of short-sighted choices in placing C-train stations outside that will prevent easy connection to other transit, limiting its potential to provide more all-purpose service. And Ottawa's location between cities 1 and 2 is better than being the city closest to Banff, the city furthest from Vancouver without having to go to Edmonton or Saskatchewan, or a poor representation of the prairies masquerading as mountains.

Anyway, whether it's Canada's fourth city, Calgary is Western Canada's second city, which makes it the Graz or Debrecen of Western Canada, for what that's worth. And, when you break Canada down into normal-country-sized regions, you realize that isn't worth much. Ottawa, as the third city in a Montreal-Toronto sandwich, gets to be Genova or Valencia--Wroclaw at worst.

I guess the point is, does it matter? What's the fourth city in the US? San Francisco? Houston? How about in Argentina? Or Mexico? Who gives a shit, right?

I was going to say something about Edmonton. If they build a light rail line down Whyte Ave out to Sherwood Park, get infill development to really catch on, and HSR to Calgary happens, they could be the dark horse to win this race. Canada's north is only going to get more important. Edmonton, as it historically was, will emerge as the gateway to the North and a very important city. The sheer math of Edmonton's lead over other northern cities all but guarantees that. But for the time being, this is just potential. Edmonton is clearly the least accomplished of the medium three.

[Metro-One]

Internally, it’s Calgary, but internationally, it’s Ottawa, if that makes any sense.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Internally, it’s Calgary, but internationally, it’s Ottawa, if that makes any sense.

Not sure I buy that. Calgary is both growing faster and is more of an independent city. For example being a major air hub for both national airlines. And after the next election, it's highly likely Ottawa's growth will stall for a while.

Calgary is basically the second financial centre of the country, given it's role as home to the oil sector. I'd argue that Ottawa and Edmonton are competing for 5th place.

[kool maudit]

I have always seen it as Calgary, insofar as it is an economic and cultural pole of its own, distinct from the others.

[Djeffery]

I just wanted to be first to say Okotoks, because I know someone else will. Also, I hate when someone starts a discussion and then says they will wait to see which way the wind will blow before offering their thoughts on it. So I will refrain.

[WhipperSnapper]

Air hub? Who cares.

Where would Canada be without Calgary? You may want to rethink your Top 3

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Air hub? Who cares.

Airlines, the financial sector, logistics, etc.

A city being an air hub is usually a mark of importance. And given that Calgary is the only hub city among the three options, I'd say it stands out.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Where would Canada be without Calgary? You may want to rethink your Top 3

Where it was before Albertan oil took off? Calgary is #4. It's got a way to go before it supplants Vancouver as #3. But it is entirely possible that we see that in the next 20-30 years.

[Truenorth00]

We have actual definitions on level of influence and importance. Use the Globalization and World Cities (GaWC) Research Network definitions:

Alpha level cities are linked to major economic states/regions and highly integrated into the world economy. Alpha level cities are classified into four sections: Alpha ++, Alpha +, Alpha, and Alpha − cities.

Beta level cities are cities that link moderate economic regions to the world economy and are classified into three sections, Beta +, Beta, and Beta − cities.

Gamma level cities are cities that link smaller economic regions into the world economy and are classified into three sections, Gamma +, Gamma, and Gamma − cities.

Sufficiency level cities are cities that have a sufficient degree of services so as not to be overly dependent on world cities. This is sorted into high sufficiency cities and sufficiency cities.

Here are their rankings and I think it does reflect the rough importance of these cities even inside Canada:

Toronto: Alpha
Montreal: Beta+
Vancouver: Beta
Calgary: Beta-
Edmonton: Sufficiency
Ottawa: Sufficiency

Halifax, Quebec City and Winnipeg are also Sufficiency Cities.

[thewave46]

Fourth city of Canada.

Kind of like the fourth most important woman you dated in your life.

Oh Ottawa. Nice, yet kind of bland. Could have married her, had some kids, settled in Nepean or Kanata or Orleans or something. Spoke French with an English accent, she worked for…CRA? Maybe PSPC? CIHR? Something fussy and bureaucratic with acronyms. It seemed vaguely important, but distant all the same. As for her, well, the Costco membership, Honda CR-V in the driveway, the faux-brick facade grey stucco suburban paradise was going to be it. Do not question it. The tick boxes must be ticked, life was going to be by the book: married by mid-20s, home in the ‘burbs with kids by her late-20s, retirement with a pension at 60. This was the order of things.

Ah, Calgary. She was aspirational and sporty, with a bit of country girl swagger. Maybe a little too vain about the money, given the ups and downs of her finances. Mania when the money was good, ornery when things got leaner. The ‘Silly boys, trucks are for girls’ sticker on the Ram parked in snout-nose home Northwest Calgary was perhaps a bit over the top. Traded a little hard on the outdoorsy thing, as her teammate Banff was the real star of that show. But Olympics ‘88 was her moment, and she shone quite well there.

Edmonton. So much potential, yet so unwilling to shine at times. Her brief fling of sporty in the ‘80s gave way to…resignation, maybe? Her Canadian modesty dulling her potential, if that spirit could get into the bones somehow. You had hoped for more and saw more within, but there was less. Sort of bittersweet in a way.

TL;DR for fourth city of Canada:

Ottawa: If dealing with the federal government, yes. Otherwise, no. It’s about Canberra’s heft in the Aussie realm. Does not seem important once one wanders away from Wellington and Sussex Drive. Most of the city reflects this ethos.

Calgary: Economically and in a cultural/tourist sense, yes. Is the heart of Alberta and ‘The West’ in the Canadian mosaic and national conversation.

Edmonton: No.

[DesignerGuy]

The only reason Ottawa is not an airport hub is because of geography. It is placed between Toronto and Montreal, the two largest cities in Canada with Pearson being the premier airport in the country only a 45 minute flight away, it just didn't make sense for Ottawa to become a hub.

Calgary is an hub because it is quite isolated and is the largest city in the Prairie Provinces plus the oil lol

I feel Ottawa is always wrongfully stereotyped as a boring provincial city but it has changed dramatically in the last 5 years. Population is growing fast, we are a tech hub within Canada (along with Vancouver, Toronto, Waterloo etc...). Geographically we are positioned in a stunning landscape of forest, rivers, fertile farmland to the south and east and are close to major US markets.

Downtown to downtown from MTL to Ottawa is less than 2 hours (traffic permitting) and the two regions together are home to 6 million + people

Ottawa is a city of festivals - Tulip, Winterlude, Jazz Fest, Bluesfest being the more prominent that attract visitors from around the world.

Downtown and around the core are densifying rapidly and you can feel the energy when you walk around. LRT is extending to airport and the east and west suburbs. New library on a prime location is under construction, cranes dot the skyline, big city proposals abound.

My take is Ottawa and Calgary can tie for 4th but Ottawa being the National Capital might give it the edge over Calgary.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Fourth city of Canada.

Kind of like the fourth most important woman you dated in your life.

Oh Ottawa. Nice, yet kind of bland. Could have married her, had some kids, settled in Nepean or Kanata or Orleans or something. Spoke French with an English accent, she worked for…CRA? Maybe PSPC? CIHR? Something fussy and bureaucratic with acronyms. It seemed vaguely important, but distant all the same. As for her, well, the Costco membership, Honda CR-V in the driveway, the faux-brick facade grey stucco suburban paradise was going to be it. Do not question it. The tick boxes must be ticked, life was going to be by the book: married by mid-20s, home in the ‘burbs with kids by her late-20s, retirement with a pension at 60. This was the order of things.

Ah, Calgary. She was aspirational and sporty, with a bit of country girl swagger. Maybe a little too vain about the money, given the ups and downs of her finances. Mania when the money was good, ornery when things got leaner. The ‘Silly boys, trucks are for girls’ sticker on the Ram parked in snout-nose home Northwest Calgary was perhaps a bit over the top. Traded a little hard on the outdoorsy thing, as her teammate Banff was the real star of that show. But Olympics ‘88 was her moment, and she shone quite well there.

Edmonton. So much potential, yet so unwilling to shine at times. Her brief fling of sporty in the ‘80s gave way to…resignation, maybe? Her Canadian modesty dulling her potential, if that spirit could get into the bones somehow. You had hoped for more and saw more within, but there was less. Sort of bittersweet in a way.

TL;DR for fourth city of Canada:

Ottawa: If dealing with the federal government, yes. Otherwise, no. It’s about Canberra’s heft in the Aussie realm. Does not seem important once one wanders away from Wellington and Sussex Drive. Most of the city reflects this ethos.

Calgary: Economically and in a cultural/tourist sense, yes. Is the heart of Alberta and ‘The West’ in the Canadian mosaic and national conversation.

Edmonton: No.

Best Poster Award Nominee!

[Architype]

To be true to this forum, you might consider rating importance according to image and modernity, that is symbolized by skyline iconography, so Calgary must be no. 4 (some might even make it no. 2). However, if you want to plumb the depths of the Canadian soul, and what has made us, then the eastern cities have it all. You can rate Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, and even Quebec City far above Calgary, etc. etc.

[KnoxfordGuy]

Calgary within the country and Ottawa to others outside. I agree with Metro-One.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Ottawa: If dealing with the federal government, yes. Otherwise, no. It’s about Canberra’s heft in the Aussie realm. Does not seem important once one wanders away from Wellington and Sussex Drive. Most of the city reflects this ethos.
.

Yeah. When having dinner at Montana's on Merivale, it's really hard to envision that quite a few people around you spend their days managing important affairs of the state, deciding who gets into the country or not, or how to deal with Putin or Netanyahu.

One could make the argument that there is more to Ottawa than the capital function, but it's not big to the point where you'd expect that to get that diluted by the city's other pursuits. Other similarly-sized capital cities around the world aren't like this. It's almost shocking how similar the vibe in Ottawa can be to Edmonton, Winnipeg or London (ON) once you get outside the innermost and government-centric parts of it.

[craner]

For me it feels like:
4. Calgary
5. Ottawa
6. Edmonton

But living in Calgary I’m not sure how objective and non-biased that ranking is.

Considering the Capital City thing it feels like it should be:
4. Ottawa
5. Edmonton
6. Calgary

[Hawrylyshyn]

Living in Hamilton, and for no particular reason, I've always seen it as:

4. Calgary
5. Ottawa
6. Edmonton

[905er]

you're all wrong.. it's my hometown, Mississauga


all joking aside, I've always thought of it as clearly Calgary ...(but agree, internationally, it's probably Ottawa)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I have always seen it as Calgary, insofar as it is an economic and cultural pole of its own, distinct from the others.

Ottawa arguably has a better location, though the downside of it is that it's perceived by many as a short-term commute or temporary career location by Torontonians and Montrealers. As you say, Calgary isn't really in anyone's shadow regionally.

That said, I think there will continue to be a flip-flop between Calgary and Ottawa for the fourth spot for quite some time, depending relatively on the fortunes of the oil and gas industry and the role the federal government plays in Canadians' lives.