The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

^ The government isn't asking you to trash your gas car in 2035. Where do people come up with this nonsense? It's only a ban on SALES OF NEW gas only Light Duty Vehicles.

The same kind of folks perpetuating that believe the government is making us eat bugs! Or that 15 minute city means social engineering instead of living somewhere where most things are within 15 minutes walking distance

[Wigs]

A 2023 Camry 4cyl has substantially better fuel economy and much less oil use and pollution than a 2001 Avalon w/ a 3 Litre V6.

[urbandreamer]

It's 2034 and I can finally afford a new car, but I'm living in rural Quebec near Richmond or Compton: gas or electric?

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

It's 2034 and I can finally afford a new car, but I'm living in rural Quebec near Richmond or Compton: gas or electric?

Gas. It'll hold its value better if not increase in value if you buy the right ICE car. Imagine getting your hands on the last ICE Ferrari.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

It's 2034 and I can finally afford a new car, but I'm living in rural Quebec near Richmond or Compton: gas or electric?

Whatever you want.

But if you buy gas, you may have a problem using your car to go to Montreal.

https://montrealgazette.com/news/loc...wntown-by-2030

[Truenorth00]

Seven major automakers are teaming up on a North American EV charging network / BMW, GM, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mercedes-Benz, and Stellantis are creating a joint venture to launch a public charging network in North America.

...

The grand plan for the currently unnamed partnership is to install “at least” 30,000 high-speed EV chargers by 2030, with the first ones to open summer 2024 in the US. The collective plans to leverage National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure (NEVI) funding in the US and will also use other private and public funding from state and federal sources to build out the network.

Current EV charging networks, from Tesla Superchargers to Electrify America, have stations installed in places where people can shop, eat, and use the bathroom. In a similar fashion, these new chargers will also be installed along routes to vacation destinations and in metropolitan areas.

The new stations will connect and charge EV models made by the partnered automakers without having to fumble with another charging station app. The companies also plan to integrate the developing “Plug and Charge” standard that the Federal Highway Administration is attempting to standardize.

...

Canadians will have to wait for “a later stage” before initial stations are installed. All stations will include the standardized Tesla North American Charging Standard (NACS) ports and also the current widely used Combined Charging System (CCS) plugs.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/7/26/2...arging-network

They should simply buy Electric America/Canada from VW and improve it.

For me, these are the gold standard to aim for:

• Video Link

• Video Link

[urbandreamer]

Another cargo ship fire caused by a German electric car - Fremantle Highway. Thousands of ICE cars to be trashed as a result? (Another reason I wouldn't buy an EV from VW Group.)

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Another cargo ship fire caused by a German electric car - Fremantle Highway. Thousands of ICE cars to be trashed as a result? (Another reason I wouldn't buy an EV from VW Group.)

I wonder if analysis has been possible in any of these cases. Is it a VW Group issue, or just a possibility for all lithium ion batteries exposed to high humidity/water exposure?

I read about non-EV case related to the recent flooding in Halifax, whereby somebody's battery-powered chainsaw became submerged in the flood, was removed and placed in a dry area to hopefully let it dry out. Hours later he heard a snap and went in to find the battery had spontaneously combusted. Extreme conditions for sure, but sure makes me nervous. I highly doubt whether most EV purchasers ever consider the potential negative effects of the amount of energy stored in these batteries sitting next to, or inside, their homes (by attached garage). IMHO, we haven't fully realized the extent of this potential problem.

Of course there's always the gas tank argument, but in reality the potential for issues are not the same.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I wonder if analysis has been possible in any of these cases. Is it a VW Group issue, or just a possibility for all lithium ion batteries exposed to high humidity/water exposure?

Tesla seems to have safely exported hundreds of thousands of cars from its Shanghai Gigafactory without torching a Ro-Ro.

EVs have lower rates of fires than internal combustion engine vehicles, with hybrids having the highest rates.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a38225...bout-ev-fires/

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

Tesla seems to have safely exported hundreds of thousands of cars from its Shanghai Gigafactory without torching a Ro-Ro.

EVs have lower rates of fires than internal combustion engine vehicles, with hybrids having the highest rates.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a38225...bout-ev-fires/

That's why I would be curious about any analysis regarding these fires on ships. Not that this info would ever be made public. But... are the fires only German/VW related, or is it more spread out? If Teslas are actually that much better, then what are they doing to avoid the problem?

Of course the ICE/EV stat is commonly stated in these discussions, but IIRC, almost all ICE vehicle fires originate in the electrical system, and are much more easily knocked down by firefighters once they start. You almost never hear about a fuel tank exploding in a typical car fire, which is not to say that it doesn't happen.

What almost never comes up in these discussions is how nasty EV fires are once they do start. They typically take 5-figure gallons of water, and can restart even once the fire is out. In fact firefighter guidance recommends parking a compromised EV outside away from anything else because if the tendency to start burning again unexpectedly.

Having stated that, in these discussions I would fully expect to be labelled as anti-EV, and then some stat to be given saying there's nothing to worry about.

That said, I've also previously posted about technical advances being made to reduce the chances of thermal runaway, etc., and I'm aware that advances in battery construction and chemistry are on the way, so we'll see how that goes. Regardless, I still don't think that the average buying public are very aware of the hazards of having that much energy stored in their vehicles... but then vehicles are already inherently dangerous, so maybe it's just business as usual... just one more risk factor.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

That's why I would be curious about any analysis regarding these fires on ships. Not that this info would ever be made public. But... are the fires only German/VW related, or is it more spread out? If Teslas are actually that much better, then what are they doing to avoid the problem?

Of course the ICE/EV stat is commonly stated in these discussions, but IIRC, almost all ICE vehicle fires originate in the electrical system, and are much more easily knocked down by firefighters once they start. You almost never hear about a fuel tank exploding in a typical car fire, which is not to say that it doesn't happen.

What almost never comes up in these discussions is how nasty EV fires are once they do start. They typically take 5-figure gallons of water, and can restart even once the fire is out. In fact firefighter guidance recommends parking a compromised EV outside away from anything else because if the tendency to start burning again unexpectedly.

Having stated that, in these discussions I would fully expect to be labelled as anti-EV, and then some stat to be given saying there's nothing to worry about.

That said, I've also previously posted about technical advances being made to reduce the chances of thermal runaway, etc., and I'm aware that advances in battery construction and chemistry are on the way, so we'll see how that goes. Regardless, I still don't think that the average buying public are very aware of the hazards of having that much energy stored in their vehicles... but then vehicles are already inherently dangerous, so maybe it's just business as usual... just one more risk factor.

You're absolutely correct that if an EV catches fire, it's a nasty thing to extinguish (and keep extinguished). It wasn't my intent to paint you as anti-EV, either.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I wonder if analysis has been possible in any of these cases. Is it a VW Group issue, or just a possibility for all lithium ion batteries exposed to high humidity/water exposure?

There is some evidence that certain battery designs are more risk. This is also about chemistry, pack design and thermal management systems. All of these things are improving rapidly and we should see declining fire risk over time.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There is some evidence that certain battery designs are more risk. This is also about chemistry, pack design and thermal management systems. All of these things are improving rapidly and we should see declining fire risk over time.

I am hopeful of this as well. I think that once EVs become the mainstream that this level of risk will be deemed unacceptable and probably open the companies to potential lawsuits. So, even if they don't act in the interest of the safety of the public, the threat of legal action should ensure that solving this issue will be a high priority in the industry (I really should try to cut back on my cynicism... ). Regardless, I do have faith in the engineering community and realize that there is a lot of work going into improving the product while also making it safer.

It's also one of the reasons that I'll wait for the large evolutionary changes to occur (and be implemented into production) with EV technology before I jump in (plus I don't drive much and my current vehicles are all in great shape with low mileage). It's coming along, and it's amazing to watch how quickly EVs are evolving, to the point that a 10 year old EV looks like a Model T in comparison to what is on the market now (and in 10 years we probably will be saying the same thing about current EVs). In 20 years people will be telling their children and grand children about the trials and tribulations of owning ICE, and how they almost can't believe that they once had vehicles that needed regular oil changes, etc...

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Another cargo ship fire caused by a German electric car - Fremantle Highway. Thousands of ICE cars to be trashed as a result? (Another reason I wouldn't buy an EV from VW Group.)

The article I read said they were also carrying Mercedes products.

[SpongeG]

Rivian CEO says buying an ICE vehicle is like ‘building a horse barn,’ R2 will help pull buyers
Peter Johnson | Jul 27 2023

https://electrek.co/2023/07/27/rivia...l-pull-buyers/

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

https://electrek.co/2023/07/27/rivia...l-pull-buyers/

The performance and drivability of an EV, Scaringe says, makes it “so much more desirable than an alternative.” He added, “Buying a non-EV just feels very old,” not only for the environmental responsibility but also because ICE cars are just plain boring.

Ehh, I'm not sure if I'm buying what he's selling. Clearly he's never driven a car with VTEC. And EVs are becoming more and more alike rather than unique. The only distinguishing factor is going to be is how many tablets are they going to use.

- Kewl instant torque with regen braking! Huehuehue
- Ayooo numb steering
- Compare frunk sizes
- Conclusion: it's nice

That's your future EV car review template. It's also in its inherent nature to be boring, as ultimately the goal is to disassociate the driver with the car, and have them assume the role of passenger.

We have to consider the source too. He might have some incentive to boost EVs.

[Truenorth00]

He's not entirely wrong. Tony Seba made the exact same point. And he doesn't own a car or a car company.

There's going to be a point where regular ICEVs rapidly depreciate as EV sales hit the main part of the S-curve where sales share is going up 5% per year.

Sure, some exotic ICEV will retain its value. There's exceptions to every rule. But if you buy a brand new fully gas Civic or Corolla today, it's value in 2030 is probably going to be under $1k. Especially if there is any form of carbon tax remaining that moves gas prices up to $2/L by then. A world where EVs keep drifting down in price, while moving up in capability is terrible for the value of most ICEVs. And that's before the acceleration caused by carbon taxes.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

He's not entirely wrong. Tony Seba made the exact same point. And he doesn't own a car or a car company.

There's going to be a point where regular ICEVs rapidly depreciate as EV sales hit the main part of the S-curve where sales share is going up 5% per year.

Sure, some exotic ICEV will retain its value. There's exceptions to every rule. But if you buy a brand new fully gas Civic or Corolla today, it's value in 2030 is probably going to be under $1k. Especially if there is any form of carbon tax remaining that moves gas prices up to $2/L by then. A world where EVs keep drifting down in price, while moving up in capability is terrible for the value of most ICEVs. And that's before the acceleration caused by carbon taxes.

We do need to see a bit more diverse offerings in the EV market - which we should be seeing sometime soon? - before I'd really make that call.

There's a lot of people that stubbornly hold on to old cars because they don't like all the sensors, screens, and nanny alarms in newer cars. I recently had to rent a brand new car and it was an awful experience, the damn thing was constantly beeping because of some sensor.. too far to the left in your lane? BEEP BEEP lane departure warning! you've been driving for more than an hour straight? BEEP BEEP fatigue warning, take a coffee break! you just turned off your car? BEEP BEEP reminder to check the back seat for a baby! And every single thing you want to adjust - whether it's your mirror angle, the air conditioning, the radio volume, whatever.. it all requires navigating menus on a touchscreen or using voice commands. Whatever happened to good old fashioned dials and buttons?

It's infuriating and I fantasized about smashing the dashboard with a hammer.

Funny enough everyone I ever talk to about this feels the exact same way, but if you want to a buy new car nowadays, EV or ICE, there's very few products that aren't loaded to the brim with all this crap. I'd like to have a beer with a car salesperson one day and ask how many customers he gets that make this rant.

My neighbour ranted to me about this other day and said he'll only replace his old Corolla with an EV if someone makes a "dumb EV" without all this nonsense.

[whatnext]

And now it is being said there are about 500 EV's on the Freemantle Highway! Sucks if you've been waiting for that EV.

Burning Ship’s Operator Says Almost 500 EVs Are on Board
Number of electric cars is much higher than previously known
Battery fires burn hot and can be difficult to extinguish

By Cagan Koc
July 28, 2023 at 5:44 AM EDT
Updated on July 28, 2023 at 12:08 PM EDT

The car carrier on fire near the Netherlands coast has almost 500 electric cars on board, according to its operator, more than was previously reported.

The cause of the blaze on the Fremantle Highway is still unknown, according to the Dutch coast guard, which previously said the initial cargo list they received suggested just 25 EVs were on the ship.

Whether EVs had anything to do with precipitating the fire, the number on board is relevant to what’s likely to be a days-long effort to extinguish it. Lithium-ion battery fires burn hotter and last longer than gasoline. They can also be difficult to put out, sometimes reigniting hours or days later...

....The ship is carrying a total of 3,783 vehicles, including 498 electric cars, according to its charterer Kawasaki Kisen Kaisha Ltd. There are several hundred BMW AG cars on board, plus roughly 300 Mercedes-Benz Group AG vehicles, representatives for the companies have said....

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...?sref=x4rjnz06

[Truenorth00]

[QUOTE=whatnext;10002064]And now it is being said there are about 500 EV's on the Freemantle Highway! Sucks if you've been waiting for that EV.

Or one of the other 3000 cars on there ....

I'm curious how a boat that had 25 BEVs manifested ended up with 500 onboard.