Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[nushiof]

Who is going to attend tonight’s meeting and report back to the group?!

[RC14]

I think you can watch it on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/live/PfAOddA...H-5dcUP01OKiE_

[Comrade]

They're making a very compelling case. I don't see how this doesn't pass (reading tweets from Andy Larsen).

[Comrade]

Also: as this happens, the NHL draft lottery is happening.

Fingers crossed Utah gets a good pick.

[arkhitektor]

From the language of the discussion in the meeting, they are 100% considering demolishing Abravanel Hall.

Mayor Wilson also stated that the Salt Palace Convention Center is "overbuilt" which was a surprise to me.

[airhero]

I took some notes. Meeting was not super informative. First paragraph below is a summary with the most important bits. Everything that follows is minutes with more details.

Essentially nothing is set in stone yet. Only interesting nuggets are that the survey for the public to vote on NHL team name will open tomorrow. At some other point in the future there will be an online portal opened where the public can submit all the comments they want for the entertainment district development. Also something that seemed really clear is a good pedestrian connection from City Creek to the arena is crucial to SEG. Really seemed like they weren't talking about 100 S but a direct midblock connection. The east-west connection came up a couple times when Abravanel Hall was being discussed. Conversely, Abravanel Hall got brought up when east-west connection was being discussed. Abravanel Hall may very well get demolished, but that is not final. Convention center exhibit hall square footage will likely be reduced. All council members seem very intent on opening up connections downtown where they are currently cut off.

More info, but nothing too interesting:

Victoria Petro opened by saying there is room in downtown for everyone.

Erin Mendenhall began by selling this as first and foremost an unprecedented opportunity for revitalization of the downtown core.

Jenny Wilson further emphasized this as deeply focused on the importance of downtown and said she as county mayor advocated from day 1 that the NHL team should be downtown. Got emotional talking about her dad doing the same for downtown. He was mayor of SLC when the Jazz landed here.

Started by talking about an east west corridor opening up through the center of downtown. Talked a lot about the Utah Symphony about Abravanel Hall and a commitment to having a prime performance hall. Said a proper renovation of Abravanel Hall will cost hundreds of million dollars and they are weighing the balance between renovating and rebuilding. She said a final decision has not been made but emphasized the importance of an east west connection.

Mike Maughan from SEG then took over to discuss the arena and entertainment district. Said they don’t have answers to all questions right now. Said every piece involved is important. The district area encompasses the Delta Center block and the two blocks east of it. He called it the Salt Lake Entertainment, Culture, and Convention District.

He said he wanted to make clear SEG wants Abravanel Hall and UMOCA onsite. Said convention center, like Abravanel Hall, is poised for complete renovation.

Said if someone plopped the perfect arena on the Delta Center site without any other changes, they would not want it, so the surrounding entertainment district is crucial, no matter what happens with the arena.

Said the Utah Jazz has 326 million dollars in annual economic impact to salt lake city (which he claimed has increased substantially since that figure was released) and NHL is estimated to bring 288 million additional dollars annually. All star weekend alone brought in 294 million dollars of economic impact, and UFC event brought 27.9 million. Other “episodic” events bring in even more.

He said rendering released was just supposed to be for idea purposes and was not their site plan, but the general idea of opening up a pedestrian connection between the arena and city creek is definitely a part of their concept. Said Gateway creates a wall cutting off the Delta Center, as does the convention center and the goal was to get rid of those walls and create a flow throughout.

Emphasized the importance of economic development.

Tomorrow, there will be a survey opened up for the NHL team name and everyone can vote.

They plan to open up a portal to gather public comment on the project that they are doing.

They still have a lot to figure out.

Opened up to Council questions (public questions are not considered for work session, that will be on May 21). Jenny Wilson said the convention center doesn’t need all their exhibit halls (it’s overbuilt) and that they need a new ballroom and there is no revenue stream for accomplishing that, and this billion dollar package could be partially used for that. The docks are a focus, they don't want the imposing dock presence on the street. Said the renovation of the convention center will also cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Tax revenue from this raise can be used for road/sidewalk infrastructure.

[TheWireRedux]

Some notes discussed from the council working meeting:

- SEG is of the opinion that Abravanel Hall and UMOCA be a part of what they are now referring to as the "Sports, Entertainment, Culture and Convention District"
- The NHL team will bring a proposed $288M in total annual economic impact to downtown
- The rendering that SEG put out in January is completely an idea and does not have any connection to an actual site plan (duh)
- The Delta Center orientation will be realigned to directly face east into the district
- Walkability and integration with the rest of downtown a key element within the plan of the district and downtown overall
- Activation of downtown is a priority of all existing spaces within downtown
- SEG will be releasing the survey to the public tomorrow (5/8) that will name the NHL team
- They are working on standing up an online portal to solicit feedback and input in the coming weeks
- Reiterated the commitment to downtown SLC long term and building infrastructure that will bring both big brands as well as local businesses and restaurants
- There is not a final number on how much the tax revenue that would go towards the arena itself
- There has been talk with the IOC Planning Committee in placing the Olympic Medal Plaza in the new district
- Mayor Mendenhall thinks that the NHL team is more transformational from an economic standpoint than the Olympics and it is only something of that magnitude that makes the economic sense to disrupt the current convention model that exists at the Salt Palace
- Mendenhall says that the wall that the convention center presents could only be disrupted by something like this and is an opportunity to build the city better in a way that is more walkable and a better experience
- Mayor Wilson says the east side of the city has seen incredibly successful projects (Main st dev, Eccles, City Creek, etc.), but the Salt Palace was overbuilt on exhibition space that was largely built for Outdoor Retailers and now that show is dramatically smaller and underbuilt on ballroom space and has walled off the same successful investments on the areas west of the building creating a rain shadow of investment
- Mayor Wilson says that Japantown will be preserved. She does not want to be the one, not being in the Japanese community, to share plans of a revitalized Japantown, but that it will be a priority where there is only upside from where we have been.
- There is about $100M in needed renovations in Abravanel Hall and there is consideration of rebuilding the hall in place vs. doing those needed renovations
- Councilmember Puy says that bringing the LDS Church, the City, County, State, business leaders and getting everyone into alignment on the importance of this opportunity underlines just how many power centers are wanting to see this through to completion
- Total SEG investment will be at least $3B and most likely more
- The sales tax raise will generate $1.3B over 30 years with a cap of $900M that could go to SEG capital projects

[arkhitektor]

I just generally think it's insane that we just keep demolishing and rebuilding the same blocks over and over again, especially given the number of empty parking lots spread throughout the city.

The reason we have so few historic buildings is that when something gets to be about 50 years old, we decide it's too expensive to renovate and we just bulldoze it and start again. Mayor Wilson clearly was laying the groundwork for doing just that to Abravanel Hall. She mentioned all the updates it needs and how expensive they'd be and that it might be better to just start over.

Councilman Mano was the only person who even came close to saying that leveling two city blocks might be something we'd someday regret.

[Comrade]

Rebuilding, or downsizing the Salt Palace is a smart move. It's a wall between the main heart of downtown and the western edge and you can't expect to have a cohesive downtown with that area essentially acting as a dead zone. I know years ago we had this discussion on the forum: how the Salt Palace was poorly planned to begin with. It's funny that now the concern is regretting demolishing part of that block when that block something the city should absolutely regret.

All this should have been done in 1994.

[wrendog]

I believe she said "hundreds of millions" of dollars to renovate Abravenel. That's a lot of money. Sheesh. Yeah, just tear it down and build a new one as part of the district

[arkhitektor]

Yes, let's bulldoze the city and start over again! (and again, and again, and again)

I'm sure we'll get it all right this time because someone bought a hockey team and nobody will buy his tickets unless we build him some new sports bars.

4th time's the charm!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Palace_%28arena%29

[arkhitektor]

Originally Posted by wrendog

I believe she said "hundreds of millions" of dollars to renovate Abravenel. That's a lot of money. Sheesh. Yeah, just tear it down and build a new one as part of the district

I think that number was just a bogeyman to justify the decision they've already made to tear it down, since its in the way of "entertainment"

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by arkhitektor

I think that number was just a bogeyman to justify the decision they've already made to tear it down, since its in the way of "entertainment"

I mean, it could be. Either way, would a new symphony hall as an integrated part of the new district be that bad?

Also, the "bulldozed" area isn't really that appealing. It's mostly just big convention center space. The new area should look much better overall.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by arkhitektor

Yes, let's bulldoze the city and start over again! (and again, and again, and again)

I'm sure we'll get it all right this time because someone bought a hockey team and nobody will buy his tickets unless we build him some new sports bars.

4th time's the charm!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Palace_%28arena%29

What a disingenuous comment lmao

Do you want to have a serious discussion or are you just going to be snarky here?

This isn't the fourth try lmao

The very first Salt Palace wasn't even on this site - it was over on 900 South between Main and State. It burned down in 1910 and wasn't rebuilt.

The first Salt Palace arena was built in 1969 as a multi-purpose sports arena that housed the Salt Lake Golden Eagles and then the Utah Jazz from 1979 to 1991.

The Delta Center was then built because the Salt Palace was not only outdated, it was one of the smallest arenas in the NBA. It wasn't workable anymore at its size and if the Delta Center had never been built, the Jazz would have relocated.

The convention center was then built on the site of the arena.

I guess my question to you: what are you even suggesting here? That they should have never demolished the original Salt Palace? What the hell was Salt Lake going to do with an outdated, tiny arena when they already had the newer Delta Center and the larger Huntsman Center on the U's campus?

Honest question: if the Salt Palace can be renovated so that it's not such a dead zone, why would that be a bad thing?

You just seem to want Salt Lake to remain stagnant?

[arkhitektor]

If the Salt Palace, in it's current form, is an impediment to downtown's success (and I don't disagree that it is) then the city and county should use public money to fix it since it is a publicly owned facility.

Instead what's happened is a billionaire used the threat of relocating the Jazz out of downtown to extract money from the public to keep the team (and his NHL) team downtown.

The public is now expected demolish two entire blocks of serviceable (though imperfect) existing infrastructure, give him a 99 year lease on the land and throw in $900 million of tax revenue for his organization to spend as it pleases for it's private gain. It's insane.

Ryan Smith is a grifter and our elected officials are eating out of his hands because we don't want the Jazz to leave the city.

[RC14]

Originally Posted by arkhitektor

If the Salt Palace, in it's current form, is an impediment to downtown's success (and I don't disagree that it is) then the city and county should use public money to fix it since it is a publicly owned facility.

Instead what's happened is a billionaire used the threat of relocating the Jazz out of downtown to extract money from the public to keep the team (and his NHL) team downtown.

The public is now expected demolish two entire blocks of serviceable (though imperfect) existing infrastructure, give him a 99 year lease on the land and throw in $900 million of tax revenue for his organization to spend as it pleases for it's private gain. It's insane.

Ryan Smith is a grifter and our elected officials are eating out of his hands because we don't want the Jazz to leave the city.

Ryan Smith didn't threaten anyone. From my understanding, the City/county/state, approached him and offered him incentives to stay in SLC.
I still have concerns about public money being used for an arena but overall, this project seems like a win win. Smith needs a new arena, the convention center is in the way of his entertainment distract and also in the way of a cohesive, walkable downtown. The convention center is a public building on public property, so it makes sense to use public money to fix it.

So far, it looks like everyone benefits here.

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by arkhitektor

If the Salt Palace, in it's current form, is an impediment to downtown's success (and I don't disagree that it is) then the city and county should use public money to fix it since it is a publicly owned facility.

Instead what's happened is a billionaire used the threat of relocating the Jazz out of downtown to extract money from the public to keep the team (and his NHL) team downtown.

The public is now expected demolish two entire blocks of serviceable (though imperfect) existing infrastructure, give him a 99 year lease on the land and throw in $900 million of tax revenue for his organization to spend as it pleases for it's private gain. It's insane.

Ryan Smith is a grifter and our elected officials are eating out of his hands because we don't want the Jazz to leave the city.

So you want the city to spend public money to fix everything? Sounds like that's what they are doing. Using public money to assist SEG in developing the area. 900 million of public funding and then SEG chipping in a couple billion of their own (yeah, with tax breaks, sure, and yes, he will be making money, sure) sounds like a good deal, especially because it includes a new professional team.

[Comrade]

Right. I think we need to understand that the original plan from Smith was to relocate the Jazz to the south valley, maybe even Utah County. This isn't Smith threatening the city. This is the city actively investing in the NBA/NHL team by giving him some level of incentive to stay while also using the project as a catalyst to a much larger overall renovation.

Smith is not beholden to Salt Lake. Yes, they offered him a very appealing deal - but he didn't have to take it. He could have said thanks but no thanks. He's not extorting anything from the city it seems.

I am sure from the city's perspective, they understand how devastating it might be to lose the Jazz and what opportunity the NHL team presents itself.

Maybe you can make the argument they're overreacting to the possibility but it's clear the Jazz bring value to the downtown core. I don't think if you interviewed one restaurant owner or bar owner, or even those who own hotels around the Delta Center, you'll hear otherwise.

But Smith is clearly not attached to downtown. It's also clear the city has approached him multiple times to commit to the city - as originally, before the Millers went all-in on a MLB team, Mayor Mendenhall met with Smith to gauge his interest about bringing a MLB team to Salt Lake and building a stadium in the Power District.

But at the end of the day, the city clearly feels losing its main arena, with the Jazz and now this NHL team, is a worse outcome than investing and working with Smith on an entertainment district.

And to be honest, I'm not sure they're wrong. If Smith decided to go build an arena out in Sandy or The Point or Provo, that essentially makes the Delta Center obsolete as an arena. Especially since Smith owns it and I doubt he'd want competing arenas (something I've said multiple times).

So, now not only are you losing out on the Jazz (and the potential draw of the NHL), you're losing out on concerts and shows that book the Delta Center. That's a double-whammy that isn't like when a city loses its NBA team to another out of state city (like with the Sonics and Seattle). In that scenario, you could still count on concerts and shows and whatever booking the arena. But not in this scenario.

So, what is the main driver to downtown Salt Lake now? We're still a very suburban-minded metro - and especially one that is family-driven. While the night life has improved, there's a segment of the population who's not interested in going downtown to club or to a bar. That leaves essentially two drivers: City Creek and Gateway and neither are so unique that you could count on them bringing in the amount of people lost by the arena relocating.

But the Delta Center? I already did the math: that will bring in 1.5 million people a year JUST on hockey and the NBA alone. That doesn't even get into the concerts or shows the Delta Center hosts that will be lost.

Just over the next few months alone you have some high-profiled events at the Delta Center, including Stevie Nicks, Kevin James and Blink 182.

It's an investment with the hope that it pays off keeping the Jazz and this NHL team in Salt Lake.

But how many major US cities have zero major arenas in their downtown?

Because once Smith leaves for the south-end of whatever, the Delta Center becomes a relic and that leaves the city with nothing.

[arkhitektor]

It's not like Ryan Smith was just going to abandon the Delta Center in place and pay for a new arena in Sandy with all his own money.

He bought the newly renovated Delta Center from the Miller family along with the team on land the county owns.

The arena that he currently owns is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. I say call his bluff. It's not like he can pick up the building and take it with him to another city.

[zurich]

Originally Posted by arkhitektor

It's not like Ryan Smith was just going to abandon the Delta Center in place and pay for a new arena in Sandy with all his own money.

He bought the newly renovated Delta Center from the Miller family along with the team on land the county owns.

The arena that he currently owns is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. I say call his bluff. It's not like he can pick up the building and take it with him to another city.

Without Ryan Smith, there will be NO entertainment district and that area will sit dead for the next decade or longer. You certainly don't have to like him.. maybe because he's a Billionaire..whatever it is.... but sometimes, it takes a business or person with deep pockets to partner with the city and its citizens to bring something special. Utah has a very low tax burden compared with most states and one of the lowest property taxes. Will $150 per year really bother you that much? What if this development brings a Fortune 500 company downtown and you have a son, daughter who ends up working there. I just get frustrated with people who obviously have some gripe with a "Billionaire" and cannot really articulate why they are against something that will benefit the city in so many ways. Again... its progress and in this case it opens up so many more possibilities.