Ontario Highways

[swimmer_spe]

Drove from Sudbury to Montreal on Friday for vacation. Here are my observations on the 17/417 ride.

1) When did North Bay get so busy? The section from 11/17 exit to Trout lake Rd, a distance of about 500m, was bumper to bumper.

2) Traffic on the 2 lanes really picks up once you hit Pembroke. So, if they could do the ~70km to the existing 4 lanes, it could be good enough.

3) Ottawa really needs a bypass.

[Dengler Avenue]

1) When did North Bay get so busy? The section from 11/17 exit to Trout lake Rd, a distance of about 500m, was bumper to bumper.

Are malls usually closed on statutory holidays in North Bay?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Are malls usually closed on statutory holidays in North Bay?

Yes, but this was Friday, not Saturday.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Yes, but this was Friday, not Saturday.

Maybe people were rushing to the Walmart at Northgate Mall before Saturday.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Drove from Sudbury to Montreal on Friday for vacation. Here are my observations on the 17/417 ride.

1) When did North Bay get so busy? The section from 11/17 exit to Trout lake Rd, a distance of about 500m, was bumper to bumper.

2) Traffic on the 2 lanes really picks up once you hit Pembroke. So, if they could do the ~70km to the existing 4 lanes, it could be good enough.

3) Ottawa really needs a bypass.

1. It's a holiday weekend and there's not really super-great cross-town routes across that part of North Bay. 11/17 takes most of the traffic, as it is funneling longer-haul traffic going north/south and east/west with local traffic. Bunching happens at 63/Trout Lake Rd. because it is the main entrance to the mall/large subdivisions nearby, plus whomever is headed down 63 itself.

2. I'd settle for more passing lanes along that stretch of 17 as an interim measure (kind of like how they did with Highway 69) until the four-laning reaches there.

3. Yeah, Hunt Club was supposed to sort of fulfill that role, but didn't for reasons. Don't think it will happen anytime soon.

[Dengler Avenue]

2. I'd settle for more passing lanes along that stretch of 17 as an interim measure (kind of like how they did with Highway 69) until the four-laning reaches there.

Passing lanes need to be at least a KM long, IIRC.
With that in mind, it seems possible to add one set EB between 41 and Whitewater Road, where there are at least 5 KM between the 2 traffic lights. (This is assuming no operational issues at JCT Saw Mills Road.)
West of 41, it becomes tricky. From there to the bridge over Indian River, it’s 1.4 KM. WB Passing lane plus lane merge is 1 KM + 300 m = 1.3 KM, so while it’s doable, it’s cutting very close to the bridge. (I’m assuming that MTO isn’t going to modify the bridge to continue that passing lane.)
From the bridge over Indian River to B-Line Road, it’s 2 KM so a set of EB passing lane is probably doable.
Hmm… now that I think about it, passing lanes may be doable as long as the distance between 2 traffic lights (or 2 important intersections) exceeds 2.1 KM. Anecdotally, the end of the WB passing lane is 800 m away from the traffic light at Forest Lea Road: that’s how I’ve got the minimal distance 1 KM passing lane + 300 m merge + 800 m distance to traffic lights = 2.1 KM.

Maybe I need to check the geometric design guideline on passing lanes for the precise numbers after this (if I have time)…

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Maybe people were rushing to the Walmart at Northgate Mall before Saturday.

No. It was full on both lanes past it.

Originally Posted by thewave46

1. It's a holiday weekend and there's not really super-great cross-town routes across that part of North Bay. 11/17 takes most of the traffic, as it is funneling longer-haul traffic going north/south and east/west with local traffic. Bunching happens at 63/Trout Lake Rd. because it is the main entrance to the mall/large subdivisions nearby, plus whomever is headed down 63 itself.

I am from North Bay. From Downtown, most people just drive Algonquin, O'Brien, or Cassels to get home. The traffic looked more like travelers and a lot of transport trucks than commuters. It was also midday.

Originally Posted by thewave46

2. I'd settle for more passing lanes along that stretch of 17 as an interim measure (kind of like how they did with Highway 69) until the four-laning reaches there.

They have way too little passing lanes. They should alternate them every 5lm each side for 10km per side.

Originally Posted by thewave46

3. Yeah, Hunt Club was supposed to sort of fulfill that role, but didn't for reasons. Don't think it will happen anytime soon.

Parts of Hunt Club does feel that way. The only real spot to put one would be through the greenbelt.

[Dengler Avenue]

Now that I think about it, have you two (@swimmer_spe, @wave46) ever been on Petawawa Boulevard (Pembroke Street)? That 3-lane road is so busy that people can only go at speed limit. I suspect that the AADT there is ~17K.
With that in mind, twinning 17 around Pembroke and Petawawa and converting it to freeway is technically justified because that will take away traffic from Petawawa Boulevard, which will in turn bring the AADT on the 4 lanes of 17 up from 8.3K to 14.3K (assuming that 1/3 of traffic will switch from Petawawa Boulevard to the 4 lanes).

That said, you are making me reconsider (in a good way) about a 2+1 configuration for 17 between Espanola and Bar River (on a new alignment, as a staged freeway).
The key thing will be to manage driver expectation if and when drivers end up travelling on a roadway like this.
Ps: I have a strong suspicion that, when going through FN like Serpent River, Mississauga (Blind River), and Thessalon, it may be better to built it as divided 4-lane freeway right from the get go.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Now that I think about it, have you two (@swimmer_spe, @wave46) ever been on Petawawa Boulevard (Pembroke Street)? That 3-lane road is so busy that people can only go at speed limit. I suspect that the AADT there is ~17K.
With that in mind, twinning 17 around Pembroke and Petawawa and converting it to freeway is technically justified because that will take away traffic from Petawawa Boulevard, which will in turn bring the AADT on the 4 lanes of 17 up from 8.3K to 14.3K (assuming that 1/3 of traffic will switch from Petawawa Boulevard to the 4 lanes).

That said, you are making me reconsider (in a good way) about a 2+1 configuration for 17 between Espanola and Bar River (on a new alignment, as a staged freeway).
The key thing will be to manage driver expectation if and when drivers end up travelling on a roadway like this.
Ps: I have a strong suspicion that, when going through FN like Serpent River, Mississauga (Blind River), and Thessalon, it may be better to built it as divided 4-lane freeway right from the get go.

I have not been on that road in at least 2 decades if ever.

As far as 2+1, maybe through the FN reserves, do 4 lanes, and then 2+1 elsewhere if to save money. Although, reality is, if it ever gets done, it will be all 4 lanes.

[toaster]

The EA contract for the 2+1 Highway 11 (North of North Bay) has been awarded, wonder how long it will take for this to get built. I hope this highway is longer than the proposed two 15km stretches.. not long enough.

If you've ever driven on this part of Hwy 11, you know that when there are passing lanes, everybody increases their speed by about 30km/h for the duration of the passing lane (it used to be 10-15 above your speed, it's now 25-30km/h+ over what people were doing before the passing lane, so if you are stuck behind someone doing 115km/h (and you want to put on your cruise control at 120km/h) you'll have to go over 145km in the passing lane to pass that person who will then revert back to 115km/h once the passing lane ends, for some reason there is this attitude in Northern Ontario (not sure if it's everywhere in canada?) that "nobody should pass me in a passing lane", people also move back into the left lane way too early (to avoid anyone passing in the last 500m-1km or so). I worry that this 2+1 will be like this, but hopefully it works toward avoiding this if you know there is a passing lane every so often.

[Dengler Avenue]

115 km/h in a 90-kph zone? How fast do people want to go? That highway is only designed for 110 kph to begin with.
I have a feeling that addressing driver expectation will help with improving their behaviour.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

115 km/h in a 90-kph zone? How fast do people want to go? That highway is only designed for 110 kph to begin with.
I have a feeling that addressing driver expectation will help with improving their behaviour.

As fast as the speedometer of their car goes to.

[Dengler Avenue]

Meanwhile I was driving east on Highway 7 from Silver Lake (Maberly) to Ottawa, and I noticed two things:
(1) It took me 3 traffic-light cycles to go through the junction to Glen Tay. I still wonder why there’s a traffic light there at all.
(2) EB traffic at JCT 15 at Carleton Place can get backed up.

Divided freeway from Carleton Place to Town of Perth, anyone??

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Meanwhile I was driving east on Highway 7 from Silver Lake (Maberly) to Ottawa, and I noticed two things:
(1) It took me 3 traffic-light cycles to go through the junction to Glen Tay. I still wonder why there’s a traffic light there at all.
(2) EB traffic at JCT 15 at Carleton Place can get backed up.

Divided freeway from Carleton Place to Town of Perth, anyone??

Why not divide the whole way to Peterborough?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why not divide the whole way to Peterborough?

That’d be great.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

That’d be great.

And if weare going to do that, why not have the other end be the Ottawa Bypass?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

And if weare going to do that, why not have the other end be the Ottawa Bypass?

Can you draw it up so we know what you mean?
I know we’ve discussed it before, but this is to make sure that everyone’s on the same page.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Can you draw it up so we know what you mean?
I know we’ve discussed it before, but this is to make sure that everyone’s on the same page.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...yI&usp=sharing

Something like that?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...yI&usp=sharing

Something like that?

@Harley613 may have proposed something similar for the bypass portion.
Post in the Ottawa thread and see what people say.
I'm simply not holding my breath for any Ottawa-Gatineau freeway link.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

@Harley613 may have proposed something similar for the bypass portion.
Post in the Ottawa thread and see what people say.
I'm simply not holding my breath for any Ottawa-Gatineau freeway link.

Get it at least to the eastern part of the 417.