Jackson Square - Page 7

realcity · #**121** Posted **Jul 9, 2009, 7:26 PM**

i think the HCC is the best looking mall on the inside

matt602 · #**122** Posted **Jul 9, 2009, 7:29 PM**

I have always thought Jackson Square is an excellent mall as far as it's bones go. It just desperately needs a makeover, both interior and exterior. It certainly shows it's age. Even still somehow the stores inside of it do well, which is saying a lot for the atmosphere that they have to operate in. Country Style is expanding their store into a giant mega format thing to handle the demand. There's also something new going on across from the Roots store. If anything the mall is getting better now, not receding any farther. After the Farmers Market and Library are re-designed, along with York Blvd, things can only go up even further.

I agree that HCC has the best interior look to it but as we all know it's woefully underutilized. At one time there were a fair number of good anchor stores but current only 2 of them remain (La Senza and Le Chateau). I think the HCC should have always just been an extension of Jackson Square anyway, and I think that is still what should happen one day. The James St. side needs to be re-opened to the street and Yale needs to push to get back some of the anchor tenants that were lost back in the day (HMV comes to mind).

Bottom line is that I don't agree with the whole "bulldoze it to the ground" theory. I believe that the structure of what we have right now is very good, it just needs to be re-jigged and beautified. With proper investment, JS and the surrounding amenities could become a shining jewel of commerce and entertainment. I really do believe in this.

Hammer Native · #**123** Posted **Jul 9, 2009, 9:34 PM**

Someone was asking earlier about the ownership of the downtown malls. The HCC is (still to my knowledge) owned by a company called Fercan. I don't know much about them but I'm pretty sure they're not a big operation. I think the owner's name is Ferraro or Ferrari or something like that. When the mall was built I believe Eaton's initially had ownership of the store portion and Cadillac-Fairview was the developer of the mall. C-F is a large corporation which owns Canada's major malls. Years ago they owned The Eaton Centre, The Centre Mall, Eastgate Square, and still Limeridge and Mapleview. Cambridge Shopping Centres does (or did ) own Burlington Mall. Cadillac would in time sell off their least profitable malls in Canada which unfortunately included the HCC and The Centre, which is how Redcliff got their hands on it. Jackson Square I'm certain has always been owned by Yale and yes the land is leased.

When The Eaton Centre was built, they and JS reached an agreement to build a connection between the two but that almost fell through back then due to some dispute between the two mall owners.

My favourite part of Jackson Square used to be the Atrium when the Standard Life building went in, in the early 80's. Does anyone remember the waterfall on the south side? Unfortunately it did poorly and many businesses closed.

matt602 · #**124** Posted **Jul 9, 2009, 11:14 PM**

I might add that Redcliff also owns Eastgate. I thought it was owned by C-F, but I recently found out I was wrong. All that C-F has left in Hamilton is Limeridge (and the strip plaza at Upper James/Rymal).

rousseau · #**125** Posted **Jul 10, 2009, 1:02 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Dalton

If we're interested in people's opinions here's mine. I f#*&ing HATE Jackson Square!

Nice rant. Postwar prosperity and suburban car culture resulted in North America getting hit hard by "urban renewal." I too wish Hamilton's city centre could have been preserved, but realistically speaking, the ethos of the times would never have allowed for what might have been termed "retrograde" thinking.

Though I wouldn't say I hate Jackson Square per se. Actually, my ire would tend to be focused on York Boulevard, or rather, York Street. I'd say that the rape of York Street was the far greater tragedy.

Hammer Native · #**126** Posted **Jul 10, 2009, 1:40 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by matt602

I might add that Redcliff also owns Eastgate. I thought it was owned by C-F, but I recently found out I was wrong. All that C-F has left in Hamilton is Limeridge (and the strip plaza at Upper James/Rymal).

You're right Easgate was sold off as well, I forgot to mention, as I think it was starting to decline years ago before the renovations and some new businesses. I think C-F only owns the premier malls in the country now. Rosart Properties did own the plaza at Upper James and Rymal, but they did go into bankruptcy restructuring. Maybe C-F did buy that out.

thistleclub · #**127** Posted **Jul 10, 2009, 3:24 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by realcity

I don't think Yale cares much.

A sizable part of the problem is that Yale seems to have zero background in managing malls. They specialize in commercial condominums and office buildings. Which is maybe why JS has long felt like it was intended primarily as a tunnel system connecting office workers with their snackfoods and newsstands. Had JS been developed by a company with relevant experience (and Pigott/First Wentworth would have been no better; inconceivable as it is, had they run with the mall they might have made a bigger botch of it than Yale), it might have secured the anchor tenants that would have brought the sort of investment that would have created the traffic that enables additional investment. As it was, they got high on the buzz of neighbouring third-party investment (Sheraton and Copps in 1985, the revamped Eaton Centre in 1990) and slept through the alarm bells of Lime Ridge's ascendancy. And now the city's getting Yale high again thanks to the eye-popping renos to the Library and Market. Jackson Square held its own when there was no competition, but the game has changed several times since then. It's unclear if they understand how to play catch-up, let alone the game itself.

Millstone · #**128** Posted **Jul 10, 2009, 3:28 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by thistleclub

A sizable part of the problem is that Yale seems to have zero background in managing malls. They specialize in commercial condominums and office buildings. Which is maybe why JS has long felt like it was intended primarily as a tunnel system connecting office workers with their snackfoods and newsstands. Had JS been developed by a company with relevant experience (and no, Pigott/First Wentworth would have been no better; inconceivable as it is, had they run with the mall they might have made a bigger botch of it than Yale), it might have secured the anchor tenants that would have brought the sort of investment that would have created the traffic that enables additional investment. As it was, they got high on the buzz of neighbouring third-party investment (Sheraton and Copps in 1985, the revamped Eaton Centre in 1990) and slept through the alarm bells of Lime Ridge's ascendancy. They held their ow when there was no competition, but they've lucked into any success they've had.

JS looks almost identical to Niagara Square with a lower ceiling, did they do that project as well

thistleclub · #**129** Posted **Jul 10, 2009, 3:55 AM**

Pop quiz: How many of the "approximately 230 stores" in Jackson Square can you name?

Also, did you know that JS is "approximately 390,000 square feet"?

Or that Yale is offering up 350,000 square feet of vacant space between 2 King Street West, 1 James Street North, 100 King Street West, the Robert Thomson Building and 120 King Street West?

omro · #**130** Posted **Jul 10, 2009, 4:01 AM**

Seriously there are that many? Erm... does that include the little booths and the food court offerings?

thistleclub · #**131** Posted **Jul 10, 2009, 12:41 PM**

They must be using '70s-era floorplans as reference, before spaces were amalgamated for larger stores. That would also take into account the Phase 4 section of the mall that was, until the relocation of the market stalls, crated up behind drywall. Those stores would not have been inventoried as available retail space, however, so that wing's square footage should be factored into Yale's glass half-full/half-empty math.

As far as JS retailer count goes, the Wikipedia count is under 160. For sake of comparison, Lime Ridge houses around 240, Eastgate around 100. (All of those numbers take into account stores and services -- food court vendors and kiosks.)

highwater · #**132** Posted **Jul 10, 2009, 2:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by thistleclub

Had JS been developed by a company with relevant experience (and Pigott/First Wentworth would have been no better; inconceivable as it is, had they run with the mall they might have made a bigger botch of it than Yale)...

Pigott was in originally as the developer/builder. They had no plans to manage the mall. They made enough of a botch of the development though.

bigguy1231 · #**133** Posted **Jul 11, 2009, 7:54 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammer Native

You're right Easgate was sold off as well, I forgot to mention, as I think it was starting to decline years ago before the renovations and some new businesses. I think C-F only owns the premier malls in the country now. Rosart Properties did own the plaza at Upper James and Rymal, but they did go into bankruptcy restructuring. Maybe C-F did buy that out.

South Hamilton Square located at Upper James and Rymal is owned by RIOCAN. They also own Mountain Plaza Mall, The Meadowlands, The Metro/ Canadian Tire property at Upper James and Mohawk and numerous other properties in the city. They are also developing the big box developement at Clappison's Corners.

The company is owned by one of the big pension plans in the country. I think it may be the investment arm of the Canada Pension Plan.

Cadillac Fairview did own most of the Malls in this city years ago. They went into bankruptcy and sold off most of their assets keeping only the newest and best properties. They were originally part of the Bronfman family trust (Seagrams Distillery).

realcity · #**134** Posted **Jul 22, 2009, 3:52 PM**

I think people are wrong about JS.

There are suburban malls and there are urban malls. Even Terry Cooke is wrong about Jackson.

What are people suggesting? That we take the roof off JS. If we did that and created pedestrian only streets that connected a hotel, art gallery, concert/theartre hall, convention center, office towers, cinemas, arena, library and market and lined the pedestrian streets with retail. Would that be okay? Providing there was no roof? Then we'd be asking for a roof enclosure so it could be heated in Feb and cooled in Aug. Then we'd have exactly have what we have now.

Pedestrian only streets is exactly what JS is. The streets/mall connect various key destinations downtown. It works well with Gore Park (which is a mall too, only outside), the two spill onto each other and work well together. The JS entrance faces Gore Park perfect. The entrance doesn't need to have a gigantic sign like Lime Ridge proclaiming "This is a Mall". JS is more then a mall. The roof top is a great feature too, it's just underused. With more events like there was in the 80s people would come back to the roof. The underground parking is brilliant too. Like it or not but there is no denying that JS block is by far the most lively area downtown.

It's a fine urban mall. I like Montreal's downtown malls. Montreal's underground city and the PATH system are similar to JS.

Don't confuse or compare a cavernous, one-purpose, suburban mall with a urban one.

Jon Dalton · #**135** Posted **Jul 22, 2009, 5:20 PM**

The difference with Toronto and Montreal indoor malls is they take up a smaller footprint of the core. The underground systems don't replace anything on street level. Even so they have their effects on the street level activity. I had to walk from Union Station to King and Bathurst recently and realized I'd probably want some food before the ride home. On the way there, and on the way back, I took different routes and tried to scout a decent take out place. In the heart of Toronto I went blocks without seeing anything. Maybe I should have been walking underground instead.

Jackson Square takes up so much of the core that almost everything useful is in there leaving little opportunity to walk the actual streets while getting day to day things done. I live right downtown and hardly ever walk down King Street. I guess if they could switch it around and put the useful businesses in old buildings on King and James, and relocate the payday loans and sketchy businesses into Jackson, the whole thing would bother me less. I just prefer to walk around the streets of the city than through a mall.

realcity · #**136** Posted **Jul 22, 2009, 6:00 PM**

Jackson Sq only takes up a lot of the "used downtown". I would argue its the only thing left anchoring any major activity downtown. Without JS right now there wouldn't be much else. It would seem less overwhelming if our downtown lively/commercial areas extended (like it should) along York, King William/Wilson to John.

Depends on what you mean by downtown as well.
If the light pink is downtown its a small fraction. If you mean the CBD (red) it is a large area yes indeed. But it's more then a mall. that footprint is also four office towers, a library, a market, a hotel and you could include Copps too.

markk · #**137** Posted **Sep 2, 2009, 2:54 PM**

The new Country Style openned in JS yesterday. I must say they did a really nice job with the reno. Its very open and I like all the glass... as a result it really brightens that hallway up.

I know its only a coffee shop, but a nice little improvement to JS nonetheless.

realcity · #**138** Posted **Sep 2, 2009, 3:58 PM**

I'll check it out today. It makes sense when the Tim Hortons lineup is around the corner. Ridiculous.... it's coffee people. What's your time worth?

Millstone · #**139** Posted **Sep 2, 2009, 4:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by markk

The new Country Style openned in JS yesterday. I must say they did a really nice job with the reno. Its very open and I like all the glass... as a result it really brightens that hallway up.

I know its only a coffee shop, but a nice little improvement to JS nonetheless.

They open earlier than Tim's next door so it's easier to get coffee at 6am

SteelTown · #**140** Posted **Sep 15, 2009, 7:08 PM**