Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[delts145]

I remember this being a fairly well anticipated project by the forum a while ago but I had all but forgotten about until I stumbled on the developers website this afternoon. That was a pretty dumpy strip mall in that location before, needing a lot of attention. Good to see this under construction now.

Twenty One's Project - Under Construction

Rockworth Companies - https://rockworthco.com/real-estate-development/

Salt Lake City, UT
Mixed Use
109 units
21,000 SF retail
Under Construction

Twenty Ones is in the Salt Lake County Club Neighborhood comprising of two high-end mixed used buildings. On the north of the site will be the apartment building and on the south along 2100 South will be the retail building with residential above. This project will have 22,000 SF of retail that will host the best of local shops, restaurants and services, as well as 109 units with amazing amenities. The project intends to create a sorely needed community gathering area attracting nearby residents, quality businesses and destination seekers together in a safe, beautiful, architecturally inviting atmosphere for decades to come.

.

[ajiuO]

Where on 2100S is that?

[SLCLvr]

Originally Posted by mattreedah

.. However, if Ryan Smith already owns the Bees stadium land (And I don’t know that it came with the sale or not) that would help tremendously with the ability to finance a stadium there. It’s not downtown per se, but it’s close enough and it’s an amazing backdrop for a game. Again, super long shot.

Salt Lake City owns the Bee's ballpark. And the Twenty ones project is 2100 East 2100 South. And most of you probably know the parking lot NE of the Viv is owned by Property Reserve (LDS Church).

[bob rulz]

Twenty Ones will definitely bring some much-needed life to that corner, but damn it is so looooooooooong. The design of it at least looks nice.

[Makid]

Regarding Phase 2 for Block 67/West Quarter

It is my understanding that the leasing sign is not for the current RWP but for the future commercial tower that is coming as part of Phase 2.

At one point, the office tower was going to be built at a later time sort of a Phase 2.5, after the Apartment and Hotel towers have been completed.

There is a push to get the commercial tower built at the same time as the rest of Phase 2 (Block D) as it would be more cost effective and cheaper to build it sooner. Also, they would like to have some tenants locked in before other projects get moving.

[rockies]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Where on 2100S is that?

2100 S & 2100 E. I'm super excited to finally get some non-suburban apts over here. I think this intersection has sooo much potential.

Is that part 21st S/Parleys way controlled by UDOT? I didn't think it was but it seems ridiculous that the city would neglect this horrible dangerous road. The amount of children and children on bikes I see running across this area of the road always shocks me. There has to be a reason it hasn't been improved already.

[Marvland]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Unfortunately, when it comes to any of the remaining major leagues, Salt Lake City is low on the totem pole for potential teams - relocation or expansion.

For the NHL, as mentioned above (to my half-serious comment about the Coyotes coming), there's already a list of cities ahead of Salt Lake:

Quebec
Houston
Portland
Hartford
Kansas City

Salt Lake just isn't a desirable market, especially with how much the Jazz is beloved here - as the NHL team would be in direct competition with a NBA team.

The MLB you've got:

Las Vegas (already mentioned)
Montreal
Charlotte
Portland
Nashville

Those cities get way more mention than Salt Lake.

That doesn't mean expansion can't happen (err, more likely relocation). If someone from Salt Lake is willing to pay the money to move 'em here, that can obviously elevate the city over those others.

But it's unlikely.

Thankfully that's not how these things work. It takes a rich person, or a group of rich people, the money and the desire. We have a lot of new rich people here who bring in lots of other rich people from other markets now. I've said since they added Wade that this is a multiple franchise ownership group. They proved that right last week, partnering with the owner of the 76ers. No reason that group couldn't expand and bring an MLB or hockey franchise or NFL (there I said it).

On locations, I really think at the actual State Fairpark is the answer. Mostly because the state would practically give the land away, as it's totally under utilized. The parking lot on the NW side of that site is 14 clear and easy acres. They already own the White Ballfield props across North Temple (mixed use and parking) and the "Ski Truck" slice on the west side of the river. Add in transit access, a pedestrian bridge over North Temple, the proposed night market and concert possibilities, river programming it's a slam dunk. I sit on an advisory committee for some Fairpark stuff and have talked to people who know way more than me and I'll just say that it's doable. Smith's field is about 9 acres for reference. The Fleet block could work as well as it's about 10 acres, including some minor assemblage on the SW corner of that block. Fleet block would be nice to use as a path to finally kill the stupid 900 S. offramp and lead the freeway exit directly onto 400 West with future Trax access.

Again, no matter what anybody tells you or whatever stats they throw out, SLC/Valley can support another major league team or two. I think it would really shine as a baseball town. Imagine the Wasatch with changing colors in September as the backdrop. Drool.

[Atlas]

The Fairpark location does sound great, Marvland, but do you think it gets the state's (and Ryan Smith's) attention over their darling Point of the Mountain land?

Thanks for the insights on the West Quarter project, Makid! After the Rio Grande Plan, I think WQ Phase II is the project I'm most excited for going forward.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by Marvland

Again, no matter what anybody tells you or whatever stats they throw out, SLC/Valley can support another major league team or two

It could happen if a single multi-billionaire decides they're going to do it no matter what, the other owners still have to support the move however. But the reality is a strong business case gives you a much better chance.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Marvland

Thankfully that's not how these things work. It takes a rich person, or a group of rich people, the money and the desire. We have a lot of new rich people here who bring in lots of other rich people from other markets now. I've said since they added Wade that this is a multiple franchise ownership group. They proved that right last week, partnering with the owner of the 76ers. No reason that group couldn't expand and bring an MLB or hockey franchise or NFL (there I said it).

On locations, I really think at the actual State Fairpark is the answer. Mostly because the state would practically give the land away, as it's totally under utilized. The parking lot on the NW side of that site is 14 clear and easy acres. They already own the White Ballfield props across North Temple (mixed use and parking) and the "Ski Truck" slice on the west side of the river. Add in transit access, a pedestrian bridge over North Temple, the proposed night market and concert possibilities, river programming it's a slam dunk. I sit on an advisory committee for some Fairpark stuff and have talked to people who know way more than me and I'll just say that it's doable. Smith's field is about 9 acres for reference. The Fleet block could work as well as it's about 10 acres, including some minor assemblage on the SW corner of that block. Fleet block would be nice to use as a path to finally kill the stupid 900 S. offramp and lead the freeway exit directly onto 400 West with future Trax access.

Again, no matter what anybody tells you or whatever stats they throw out, SLC/Valley can support another major league team or two. I think it would really shine as a baseball town. Imagine the Wasatch with changing colors in September as the backdrop. Drool.

It's exactly how it works. That's why you don't see more franchises popping up in smaller markets like Louisville and Memphis, despite there always being a level of interest to relocate a specific team there (beyond the Grizzlies moving from Vancouver to Memphis a couple decades ago - and the NBA is probably best fit for smaller markets ... way more than any other sport with the NHL the next fit).

Ultimately, your last point is irrelevant. Salt Lake could support two pro franchises - but whether they'd support them well is a completely different story.

Is Salt Lake going to support a MLB team that is a perennial loser more than those other cities? It's a legitimate question to ask. Why? Because Salt Lake absolutely would not be a destination market for MLB talent, so you'd have to have an owner willing to pay out the ass to bring in some level of talent here to even be competitive and I am not sure Salt Lake has that type of billionaire.

THAT'S where Salt Lake becomes a problematic expansion candidate. We see first hand how hard it is to convince players to sign with the Jazz (and we're talking about through free agency). Sure, they've drafted well but does anyone really think Donovan Mitchell is going to finish his career in Utah? I'd not be shocked if he doesn't even re-signs with the Jazz. And that's just 15 players the Jazz have to convince to come play in Salt Lake City. A MLB team? MLB teams can have 40 under control. The NFL? 53 players.

It becomes increasingly difficult to build a contending roster in the MLB and NFL playing in a city no one wants to relocate to - and it's double bad because there would be zero tradition for Salt Lake, something that cities like Kansas City and Green Bay can at least point to. We're essentially hit with the double-whammy, maybe the least liked pro city in all of sports and a new franchise with no roots whatsoever that can convince those fence-sitting players to come play here (which the Jazz actually can provide).

Finally, baseball in Salt Lake has become an afterthought. I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but there was a time where the Buzz/Stinger were one of the top draws in minor league baseball.

That isn't the case anymore.

In 2019, the Bees ranked 8th (out of 16) in the PCL in attendance and 19th in the minor league.

Other cities higher on the expansion list than Salt Lake drew larger crowds, including Vegas (1st in all of minor league), Nashville (3rd) and Charlotte (6th overall in minor league).

Salt Lake isn't going to get a MLB/NFL team for a good while - maybe not in our lifetime.

Again, no matter what anybody tells you.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

Twenty Ones will definitely bring some much-needed life to that corner, but damn it is so looooooooooong. The design of it at least looks nice.

Does it, though???

[bob rulz]

It's not spectacular, but I like it. Certainly much better than most of what's being built right now.

[delts145]

Originally Posted by Marvland

Thankfully that's not how these things work. It takes a rich person, or a group of rich people, the money and the desire. We have a lot of new rich people here who bring in lots of other rich people from other markets now. I've said since they added Wade that this is a multiple franchise ownership group. They proved that right last week, partnering with the owner of the 76ers. No reason that group couldn't expand and bring an MLB or hockey franchise or NFL (there I said it).

On locations, I really think at the actual State Fairpark is the answer. Mostly because the state would practically give the land away, as it's totally under utilized. The parking lot on the NW side of that site is 14 clear and easy acres. They already own the White Ballfield props across North Temple (mixed use and parking) and the "Ski Truck" slice on the west side of the river. Add in transit access, a pedestrian bridge over North Temple, the proposed night market and concert possibilities, river programming it's a slam dunk. I sit on an advisory committee for some Fairpark stuff and have talked to people who know way more than me and I'll just say that it's doable. Smith's field is about 9 acres for reference. The Fleet block could work as well as it's about 10 acres, including some minor assemblage on the SW corner of that block. Fleet block would be nice to use as a path to finally kill the stupid 900 S. offramp and lead the freeway exit directly onto 400 West with future Trax access.

Again, no matter what anybody tells you or whatever stats they throw out, SLC/Valley can support another major league team or two. I think it would really shine as a baseball town. Imagine the Wasatch with changing colors in September as the backdrop. Drool.

My vote would be for the Fairpark area. Points well taken Marvland and I very strongly agree that the support is there. We've discussed this issue back and forth for years now. Many of us have felt and expressed your same opinion from the start. As previously mentioned by yourself and many of us, the only piece of the puzzle remaining will be a cartel of old and or new money in the area contributing to the startup and ongoing support. Simply, a cartel of local and regional/national boosters that will form to bring in more of the major league franchises to the area. It is rare if ever in these modern times that one single billionaire will foot the startup dollars, especially if you're talking NFL. Few if any individuals would attempt it, probably not even Bezos. Smith is an affable guy who gets along well as a team player when it comes to networking with fellow business moguls. If Smith or other fellow up-and-coming Utah nouveau riche tech billionaires continue to flourish I think we're going to see some definite movement toward MLB and or NHL in the next few years.

The current size and enthusiasm of the regional market is sufficient for the NHL or even the MLB. Coupled with the hyper-growth over this next decade and excellent expatriate loyalty, additional franchises only need the added support of a cartel of wealthy fans like Smith and Company to support more major league franchises. As far as an NFL team, that will most likely be the last jewel in the crown down the road. Probably at least 10-plus years from now unless major multi-national money in the fortune 400 crowd becomes involved sooner than later.

As was pointed out, player perception can be an issue and the Jazz are the example. However, while that was definitely a problem in the past I don't think it continues to be as big an issue as in the past and is rapidly changing for the better. The lack of downtown vibrancy 10 to 20 years ago makes that sleepy perception very viable. That along with too much ethnic and religious homogony, but times are a changin. While we will see huge change downtown and in the central metro over the next 10 years if the current trajectory continues, we have already experienced a massive change since many of us joined this forum. Interestingly, the Jazz are closing in on the top half of the most valuable of the 30 NBA franchises. As of 2021 it is considered on very sound footing financially, and a great investment. Also, its percentage increase year over year puts it within striking distance of several major markets in the top 15. At #18 Salt Lake has pulled ahead of Denver and is very close to closing in on and passing Phoenix.

For whatever reason, in these times Salt Lake City and CSA seems to thrive on national uncertainty. All of the so-called national experts seem to concur that the SLC market will be one of a handful to thrive over this next decade.

I've been on this forum long enough to know that the Downtown and Wasatch Front CSA is progressing very quickly. Events have been changing too rapidly over the past 15-plus years along the Wasatch Front to ever say something like 'it will never happen in my lifetime', unless of course, you're 90-plus years old.

[Orlando]

I do know that there is some substantial talk about an MLB stadium at the point of the mountain development. I don't agree with that location at all, but I have very little say in the matter.

[TheGeographer]

MLB, America’s great pastime has lost popularity over the years. Plus there hasn’t been an expansion team since 1998. NHL and NFL have teams right down the road in Vegas. There certainly are wealthy investors in northern Utah, but the big cities who are our competitors for an MLB team also have wealthy individuals - Nashville, Portland, Montreal, Las Vegas, Charlotte. Same goes for the NHL. At the end of the day it’s also up to the league where expansion teams end up regardless of support. Seattle has wanted an NBA team ever since the SuperSonics left but due to proximity to the Portland trailblazers the nba has not granted them another team. And Seattle csa population is a million more than SLC. Kansas City built a state of the art arena and has been begging for an NBA or NHL team ever since and has yet to receive one. The professional leagues largely decide where expansion occurs not wealthy locals who envision a team at the point of the mountain. Another thing to consider - sports fans are a loyal bunch. Northern Utah continues to grow, but many like myself are not Utah natives. Myself, my neighbor, my work friends, we are all loyal fans to teams from outside of Utah. That’s not to say Utah does not have great local support for teams. Look no further than the Jazz or RSL. I just know personally I only attend Jazz games when my away team is in town. Same would go for other professional sports teams. An NFL home game in Utah could look a lot like a home game for the LA chargers, with lots of away fans. From a putting butts in the seats standpoint that would not be a problem, but from other economic standpoints it would be an issue. We don’t have the population of LA where it’s okay if many locals are not Chargers or Clippers fans. Personally despite all my “naysaying” I think it would be awesome for northern Utah to have another professional team, I just think there is a lot of competition with equally if not in some cases more attractive competitors. Some cities like Kansas City and Seattle have already been waiting in line. If I’m a non-biased investor I’m putting the first expansion MLB team in the last 25 years in Vegas. Here’s to wishing we land another professional team, but we should be realistic about our prospects and not be biased. Hopefully I’m wrong.

[delts145]

While I wouldn't say you're completely wrong Geographer as of 01/11/22, I just wouldn't place your bets against the Wasatch Front, especially from a business and growth trajectory.

Also, some of those markets you mentioned are not nearly as fiscally (NBA) healthy or fan supported as the Jazz. You also mentioned a larger market like Seattle. Seattle has always been considered somewhat of a struggle with fan support. Thus far they've only shown upper-tier profitability enthusiasm for soccer. Seattle is also a larger market than Denver but Denver is considered far more of a sports lucrative market than Seattle. Seattle's only ace is not its fans but its tech billionaire's and even that is waning in the projected political/business climate. While Salt Lake City is not quite as large as Denver, it is on the same level or greater when it comes to percentage of fan support among the major francises that it does have. Again, fiscally Salt Lake City is a better business bet than many of the major markets and is climbing faster than most.

Neither markets like Seattle or San Diego are a good comparison for Salt Lake City for a variety of reasons. Nor are traditional markets like St. Louis or Kansas City, which are fiscally and growth wise floundering, and have been for decades. IMO, if we're going to match up markets, then Denver would be the barometer by which the Wasatch Front should take cues from.

[Atlas]

Originally Posted by TheGeographer

An NFL home game in Utah could look a lot like a home game for the LA chargers, with lots of away fans.

Yeah I don't buy this. People would come out of the woodwork for a new MLB or NFL team. The hype would be unbelievable and fan support would be strong, at least until they started losing consistently. I don't think there's any question as to whether SLC could support more pro teams. Utah people love sports (football especially) and there are droves of us just waiting to declare allegiance to a local pro team. I think this is part of what drives the energy of the Utah-BYU rivalry: there's no local NFL team to supersede CFB in importance.

Whether or not it will actually happen, with competition from other cities and other factors, is much less certain.

I, for one, will be livid if a pro team is given whatever they want by the state so that they can build a stadium out in the PoM suburbia. The good news is that the longer it takes for a pro team to decide to come to SLC, the less likely the PoM site becomes. It'll be built-out in 10 years.

[Reeder113]

Some nice images of downtown from Twitter:





https://twitter.com/Grallon/status/1480759324112670721

[delts145]

I hope a future stadium is not put at The Point. Some would say it's a better geographic choice being at the center of the central and southern metro. I say you would have a lot bigger Sunday fan base if it's located closer to the northern metro. Those in the southern metro who are rabid fans of which there are many are not going to let a little longer commute to Salt Lake dampen their appetite for pro sports.

[TheGeographer]

You are right Delts, Wasatch front is currently in and has been in an impressive growth cycle. Good points about Denver vs Seattle. The local fans and support make all the difference.

Atlas- I don’t disagree that Utah has great local support. I mentioned in my previous post that the Jazz have great fans. I just don’t see all the out of Staters who are moving here bolstering the population jump ranks and become a Utah pro football team fan. Would there be tons of locals who go to the NFL game? Absolutely. Would out of Staters who are adding to the growing population become fans. I think this is far from certain. This is why despite there being let’s say a couple million Chargers fans in the greater LA area half the stadium fills up with Broncos fans who travel/are living in the area. The NFL is different from college football when it comes to who goes to the game. Even at Broncos-Steelers or Broncos-Packers games that are in Denver there are plenty of Steelers or Packers fans. This is all beside the point though.. I don’t disagree that an NFL stadium could sell out in Salt Lake assuming consistency. That part is difficult. My overarching point is it’s not about what we want, it’s about what the leagues think is a good investment. Vegas beats out Salt Lake for baseball in my opinion given its reputation, and success with the Knights and Raiders. Would I prefer an MLB (the A’s) relocate in Salt Lake. Hell Yes!!!!! Of course. Just trying not to be biased. We all want professional sports teams here in SLC, I’d be crazy not to.

I’ve always thought NHL is the most realistic. We have an arena where they can play already...I think. Maybe some remodeling needs to be done to fit an ice rink but it’s there to remodel.. NHL also seems to embrace smaller metros than even Salt Lake -Columbus, Winnipeg, Ottawa. And the NHL seems to be more actively expanding. Low investment with a stadium already in place, and a better professional sport for smaller markets. NHL is what should be our target.