HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Manitoba & Saskatchewan


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1061  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2023, 6:59 PM
OTA in Winnipeg OTA in Winnipeg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Silver Heights
Posts: 1,708
^That's quite the discrepancy. Missed the mark by 1.3 billion? There's a reason I never vote Conservative.
They're starting to look, and in some cases act, like the Republicans down south. Alternative facts and all that.
I don't believe anything they say. I mean, how can you? The record speaks for itself.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1062  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2023, 7:42 PM
pspeid's Avatar
pspeid pspeid is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg View Post
^That's quite the discrepancy. Missed the mark by 1.3 billion? There's a reason I never vote Conservative.
They're starting to look, and in some cases act, like the Republicans down south. Alternative facts and all that.
I don't believe anything they say. I mean, how can you? The record speaks for itself.
Pretty much every new government, whatever the party, starts their term by claiming "the books are worse than we feared". You could probably go back 30 years and see basically the same statements from both the Conservatives and the NDP as they took power.

That being said, the deficit numbers do appear horrendous. Stephanson's response was typically weird: "I would suggest maybe they're looking at inflating those numbers as much as possible so that, in the spring, they can come out with numbers that make them look like heroes," she said.

Projection, projection, projection.
__________________
"Opinion is really the lowest form of intelligence"-Bill Bullard

"Naysayers are always predicting the present"-Anon.

"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength"-Eric Hoffer
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1063  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2023, 9:16 PM
Sasquatch Sasquatch is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2023
Location: Near Winnipeg
Posts: 25
When interest rates collapsed during the pandemic, governments at all levels and of all stripes were quite happy to go along with the idea that "interest rates are so low you'd be crazy not to borrow". Very few voters complained about that; most were elated to hear it. So now we find ourselves faced with exponentially rising deficits. A couple of predictions: the gas tax cut will only last six months, if that. Then the budget cuts will begin, first and foremost to the highways budget.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1064  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2023, 9:19 PM
Sasquatch Sasquatch is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2023
Location: Near Winnipeg
Posts: 25
My estimation is that tax receipts are cratering as the marginal consumer finds the cost of too many items to be out of reach. Just look at Jets attendance lately. The empty seats represent a lot of foregone PST revenue. Multiply that across the economy and you get the picture.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1065  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2023, 9:25 PM
cheswick's Avatar
cheswick cheswick is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: South Kildonan
Posts: 2,801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
When interest rates collapsed during the pandemic, governments at all levels and of all stripes were quite happy to go along with the idea that "interest rates are so low you'd be crazy not to borrow". Very few voters complained about that; most were elated to hear it. So now we find ourselves faced with exponentially rising deficits. A couple of predictions: the gas tax cut will only last six months, if that. Then the budget cuts will begin, first and foremost to the highways budget.
The gas tax cut was moronic pandering. The demand for gas is so inelastic in the short term the majority of the cut is going to the pockets of the gas companies.
__________________
There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1066  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2023, 10:57 PM
optimusREIM's Avatar
optimusREIM optimusREIM is offline
There is always a way
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,952
Highways would hurt, it's not even about having nice stuff, it's about having semi-competent stuff.

Gas tax holiday: so long as the price of gas keeps falling, no need really. That said, rural folks or anyone with a commute will appreciate it.
__________________
"Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm."
Federalist #10, James Madison
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1067  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 2:20 PM
pspeid's Avatar
pspeid pspeid is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,922
Dan Lett's opinion piece from the Winnipeg Free Press gives more details into the PC's little "gift" to the province:

Tories’ civil-service bargaining blunder blowing up province’s balance sheet
Dan Lett
By: Dan Lett
Posted: 4:11 PM CST Wednesday, Dec. 6, 2023


In a rush to pull victory from the jaws of electoral defeat, it appears the former Progressive Conservative government has left a 10-figure retroactive-pay time bomb for the NDP.

First evidence of the pending explosion came Tuesday, when Premier Wab Kinew revealed a second-quarter fiscal report forecasting a $1.6-billion deficit for the 2023-24 year. That deficit is more than four times what was forecast by the Tories before Manitobans cast their ballots in the Oct. 3 provincial election.

Kinew and Finance Minister Adrien Sala said the deficit was caused by a slowing provincial economy, drought conditions that have devastated profits at Manitoba Hydro and a broad array of unfunded spending pledges made by the Tories — some made in the heat of the campaign — that were not reflected in the 2023-24 budget, tabled in the spring.

Premier Wab Kinew and finance minister Adrien Sala blamed the forecasted $1.6 billion deficit on inaction by the Tories to renegotiate expired union contracts, resulting in years of retroactive pay to thousands of employees.

Among those unfunded liabilities, Sala highlighted the impact of settling contracts with unionized workers, which includes both wage increases going forward and, more significantly, the costs of years of retroactive pay for all of the expired contracts the Tories refused to renegotiate.

How much has retroactive pay added to current budget liabilities? The numbers are quite astounding.

A spokesman for the Manitoba Government and General Employees’ Union confirmed the province paid more than $117 million in retroactive pay this year to employees at Manitoba Public Insurance, Manitoba Liquor and Lotteries, the Prairie Mountain and Interlake-Eastern regional health authorities and provincial colleges.

The Manitoba Association of Health Care Professionals similarly reported that government was on the hook for $120 million in retroactive pay for deals signed in July with 6,500 employees of Shared Health, the Northern and Winnipeg regional health authorities. The previous agreements expired in 2018.

How did the Tories set the stage for this retroactive-pay bomb? We need to go back to 2017, when former premier Brian Pallister introduced the Public Services Sustainability Act in a bid to freeze government employees’ pay to help get the budget deficit under control.

The act was passed by the legislature, but never proclaimed into law. Nevertheless, starting in 2018, the PSSA hung like the sword of Damocles over all contract talks between government and external entities including school divisions, post-secondary institutions and Crown corporations.

No matter what office of government was doing the negotiating, bargaining groups were offered two years of wage freezes and two years at 0.75 per cent and 1.0 per cent, respectively. The Tories hoped the threat of a PSSA proclamation would bully unions into accepting its terms voluntarily.

In the end, the strategy backfired in spectacular fashion.

Only 24 collective agreements, involving about 8,800 employees, were settled under the threat. That left more than 100,000 provincial civil servants without contracts.

The act was struck down as unconstitutional by the Court of King’s Bench in 2020, although that decision was overturned on appeal. Even so, emboldened unions began seeking settlements that were well above its terms.

In the year following the first court decision, nine collective agreements were signed by the government with wage increases that were two or three times the numbers set out in the act. And many of them created certainty only until 2022.

The result was tens of thousands of government employees working on expired contracts, represented by unions that were fuelled by inflation and high-interest rates to seek significantly higher settlements.

Why would a government that so often trumpeted its fiscal acumen have made such a grievous error in judgment when it came to negotiating with its employees?
No union has negotiated more settlements in the last year than the MGEU, which represents workers at MPI and Liquor and Lotteries — both of which went on strike this year to get settlements — and the 11,160 members of the government civil service bargaining groups, whose contract expired in March.

Why would a government that so often trumpeted its fiscal acumen have made such a grievous error in judgment when it came to negotiating with its employees? And why would the same government, at the same time as it was kicking hundreds of millions of dollars in retroactive pay down the road, undertake a concerted campaign of tax cuts that would ultimately drain billions of dollars from the provincial treasury?

The Tories have offered little in the way of a response.

Opposition Leader Heather Stefanson followed Pallister to the premier’s office after he resigned in 2021 and is as guilty as anyone for the retroactive-pay liability. She called the NDP’s fiscal report — and it’s astounding $1.6-billion deficit — a “fictional forecast.”

She noted the 2022-23 end-of-year public accounts released in September, just before election day, actually posted a budget surplus of $270 million.

Yes, the new government is probably making the situation look a bit worse than it really is for political reasons. But you cannot ignore the reality that the province has already had to book $240 million in retroactive pay for contracts that expired years ago, a sum so large it very nearly erases the surplus Stefanson was crowing about.

That is not a fiction. It’s all hard fact.

For reasons that appear to be more ideological than practical, the Progressive Conservative government decided to ignore its obligations to bargain with its employees in good faith. In doing so, it created a huge and explosive fiscal liability.

One that will be felt for years to come.
__________________
"Opinion is really the lowest form of intelligence"-Bill Bullard

"Naysayers are always predicting the present"-Anon.

"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength"-Eric Hoffer
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1068  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 2:45 PM
rrskylar's Avatar
rrskylar rrskylar is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: WINNIPEG
Posts: 7,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
When interest rates collapsed during the pandemic, governments at all levels and of all stripes were quite happy to go along with the idea that "interest rates are so low you'd be crazy not to borrow". Very few voters complained about that; most were elated to hear it. So now we find ourselves faced with exponentially rising deficits. A couple of predictions: the gas tax cut will only last six months, if that. Then the budget cuts will begin, first and foremost to the highways budget.
All levels of govt. simply ignored the fact that interest rates could rise and most pretended this would never happen.

Cuts will need to be made and the speNDP will find themselves very unpopular in short time, the province needs to concentrate on key priorities, health care, education, public safety and housing, a lot of non essential stuff needs to be cut!

Last edited by rrskylar; Dec 7, 2023 at 3:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1069  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 4:02 PM
FactaNV FactaNV is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2023
Posts: 1,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
All levels of govt. simply ignored the fact that interest rates could rise and most pretended this would never happen.

Cuts will need to be made and the speNDP will find themselves very unpopular in short time, the province needs to concentrate on key priorities, health care, education, public safety and housing, a lot of non essential stuff needs to be cut!
Interesting way you spun this as an NDP problem when this fiscal disaster is squarely on the plates of the PCs. They need to purge that party of the dummies running the show, they couldn't manage a 7-11, nevermind a province. I might be able to vote for them again if they got their heads out of their asses and focused less on identity politics and culture war bullshit.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1070  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 4:27 PM
pspeid's Avatar
pspeid pspeid is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by FactaNV View Post
I might be able to vote for them again if they got their heads out of their asses and focused less on identity politics and culture war bullshit.
Yes so much of the PC platform is diversion and misrepresentation, I don't know if even they know the difference between fact and fiction anymore. Our political system needs a clear-eyed conservative wing to function at it's best. Sadly, we have a conservative wing that seems to want us to be outraged by pronouns in schools, rather than a vision for shared economic prosperity.
__________________
"Opinion is really the lowest form of intelligence"-Bill Bullard

"Naysayers are always predicting the present"-Anon.

"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength"-Eric Hoffer
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1071  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 5:59 PM
drew's Avatar
drew drew is offline
the first stamp is free
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hippyville, Winnipeg
Posts: 8,213
Some interesting information about the PCs, unions and backpay contributing to the deficit forecast from the Dan Lett opinion piece in the FP today:

Quote:
How much has retroactive pay added to current budget liabilities? The numbers are astounding.

A spokesman for the Manitoba Government and General Employees’ Union confirmed the province paid more than $117 million in retroactive pay this year to employees at Manitoba Public Insurance, Manitoba Liquor and Lotteries, the Prairie Mountain and Interlake-Eastern regional health authorities and provincial colleges.

The Manitoba Association of Health Care Professionals similarly reported the government was on the hook for $120 million in retroactive pay for deals signed in July with 6,500 employees of Shared Health, the Northern and Winnipeg regional health authorities. The previous agreements expired in 2018.

How did the Tories set the stage for this retroactive-pay bomb? We need to go back to 2017, when then-premier Brian Pallister introduced the Public Services Sustainability Act in a bid to freeze government employees’ pay to help get the budget deficit under control.

The act was passed by the legislature, but never proclaimed into law. Nevertheless, starting in 2018, the legislation hung like the sword of Damocles over all contract talks between the government and external entities, including school divisions, post-secondary institutions and Crown corporations.

No matter what office of government was doing the negotiating, bargaining groups were offered two years of wage freezes and two years at 0.75 per cent and 1.0 per cent, respectively. The Tories hoped the threat of proclaiming the legislation into law would bully unions into accepting its terms voluntarily.

In the end, the strategy backfired in spectacular fashion.

Only 24 collective agreements, involving about 8,800 employees, were settled under the threat. That left more than 100,000 provincial civil servants without contracts.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1072  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 6:14 PM
bomberjet bomberjet is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 14,316
My first thought was backpay. Contributing to some of the overrun but not asll.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1073  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 6:59 PM
1ajs's Avatar
1ajs 1ajs is offline
ʇɥƃıuʞ -*ʞpʇ*-
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: lynn lake
Posts: 26,063
theres allot

but hows we go from a surplus announcement of 500m during the election tp this?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1074  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 7:05 PM
Hecate's Avatar
Hecate Hecate is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg View Post
^That's quite the discrepancy. Missed the mark by 1.3 billion? There's a reason I never vote Conservative.
They're starting to look, and in some cases act, like the Republicans down south. Alternative facts and all that.
I don't believe anything they say. I mean, how can you? The record speaks for itself.
A drop in the bucket compared to that 24 billion dollar hydro debt courtesy of the NDP…
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1075  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 7:14 PM
Hecate's Avatar
Hecate Hecate is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ajs View Post
theres allot

but hows we go from a surplus announcement of 500m during the election tp this?
Creative accounting I guess. Leave out this, add that… and voila… facts that suit your agenda. They all lie and tell their fan base what they want to hear… Look at the liberals poverty numbers and look at food bank usage increase and Homelessness increases across the country… Have the liberals really brought down poverty? Anyone with a brain would look at the easily accessible information and say no. But people fully believe poverty has decreased in this country.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1076  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 7:41 PM
bomberjet bomberjet is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 14,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hecate View Post
A drop in the bucket compared to that 24 billion dollar hydro debt courtesy of the NDP…
The recent PC's raided Hydro to make their budgets look good. Just like your next comment about creative accounting.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1077  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 10:14 PM
Hecate's Avatar
Hecate Hecate is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by bomberjet View Post
The recent PC's raided Hydro to make their budgets look good. Just like your next comment about creative accounting.
What do you think the NDP did for 16 years? When they first got into power back in 99 they doubled the rates charged to hydro for using manitobas water. And they then went on and created one of the worst hydro expansion plans imaginable and stuck us all with billions of debt. All so we could create bloated bureaucracies employing some of the highest paid public servants on the planet, while our infrastructure literally crumbles around us.

https://winnipegsun.com/2016/04/02/j...c057b8bbc/amp/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1078  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 10:23 PM
bomberjet bomberjet is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 14,316
I know. Just pointing out the most recent government did the exact same.

It's always doom and gloom for Hydro. But now, we can't even support industries that want to come here because we don't have enough capacity in the system.

Debt is subjective (?). First bought my house 15 years ago. My mortgage was super expensive. Now my mortgage is dirt cheap because it's based on economic conditions 15 years ago. Same goes for Hydro.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1079  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2023, 4:58 PM
cheswick's Avatar
cheswick cheswick is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: South Kildonan
Posts: 2,801
More to file under politicians doing some politicing, NDP found $123M in savings. No plans to apply it to the enormously large unexpected deficit the found last week.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...2023-1.7057922
__________________
There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1080  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2023, 7:57 PM
FactaNV FactaNV is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2023
Posts: 1,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
More to file under politicians doing some politicing, NDP found $123M in savings. No plans to apply it to the enormously large unexpected deficit the found last week.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...2023-1.7057922
It should used to attract business. Manitoba desperately needs more industry, grow the tax base, debt to GDP goes down. We should be doing everything in our power to scalp as much industry as possible and leverage our geographic centrality. Maybe try to spread some out of Winnipeg to the other cities/large towns.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Manitoba & Saskatchewan
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 7:55 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.