ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[testarossa50]

Originally Posted by BunkyWay

Wow, another "luxury" apartment development in Buckhead? Just where exactly is the demand for all these "luxury" apartments coming from? I hate to say it, but I smell a bubble forming across the city...and Buckhead is ground zero (just as it has been for every other overbuilding catastrophe).

Curbed has the total unit count already pegged at above 3,000. As a denizen of Buckhead, I am seriously worried about how many apartments are going to be jammed in before it's all over.

I agree they're building too much in the luxury segment, but an unsustainable boom in luxury apartment development is nowhere near as dangerous as an unsustainable boom in owner-occupied construction. The previous "boom" had people financing purchases at highly inflated values, and it takes years for them to recover financially from those mistakes. The main people who are hurt when apartments are overbuilt are the developers, who go bankrupt and someone else takes over the project, slashing rents ~20%.

Atlanta is a huge market, and we can rent virtually unlimited numbers of 1BR apartments for $1,000-$1,100. 2,500 of them is no big deal. If these guys all fail to get $1,300 a month, it won't be that big of a loss to our city. And, frankly, a lot of our ~1970s construction 2-floor brick apartment complexes scattered about have been jacking up their rents unrealistically in the last couple years, so it will be nice for them to have some downward pressure as the level of competition heats up.

I'm more concerned (as you might be also) about traffic. Buckhead handling 3,000 units a year or whatever seems impossible. In Midtown we have a building boom of our own going on (maybe 1,000 units/year in a much smaller neighborhood), but at least here I have the option of walking basically everywhere and loling at all the suckers stuck in their cars; in Buckhead, that option generally isn't there (or isn't nearly as appealing).

[Zanarkand A East]

Originally Posted by Tuckerman

Some transit studies argue that walking more than a quarter mile to a transit connection is about the maximum that people (Americans) will tolerate. However, most of those observations are based on day in day out transit use to and from work. However the context of a single event at a major stadium with thousands walking in the same direction in a presumably celebratory fashion is a very different phenomenon. In addition, I would argue that those pundits who always drive their cars to the games will not alter their behavior even if MARTA stopped at their seat.

Great point, and having more retail and wider sidewalks takes people's attention away from the length of the walk.

Originally Posted by L41A

The current location of Georgia Dome is practically ideal from a heavy rail mass transit perspective but the walking perspective is being a little overblown in my opinion when comparing to the new stadium if the north site is chosen. Thousands of fans currently walk a distance that's not too different from the distance to the new stadium if the north site is chosen. And like someone has stated, the distance is not a day-to-day going to work walking distance - it's a once a week (at the most) event.

Currently, the Georgia Dome sits almost directly over two MARTA stations (Vine City and Georgia Dome/Philips Arena?GWCC) at appx 0.1 mile distance. If the new Atlanta Falcons Stadium is built on the north site. Those stations will be about 0.5 mile from the new stadium. BUT there will be another MARTA station (Civic Center) within a relative distance of (0.6 mile).

Putting this distance (0.5 mile) into perspective, thousands of Georgia Tech football fans use North Avenue MARTA station and it's about 0.3 mile from Bobby Dodd Stadium.

At any of the championship games at the Georgia Dome (SEC, Final Four, etc), thousands of fans walk from events at Centennial Olympic Park to Georgia Dome at 0.4 mile.

And the distance from Georgia State MARTA station to I-20 (halfway to Turner Field) is 0.4 mile. And Braves fans who drive to Turner Field multiple days a week may walk in the summer up to 0.3 mile from parking lots around the stadium.

There are advantages to both locations. I don't have a strong preference for either one. But I do have enough trust in the parties (the city, the Falcons, the state) that are more intimately involved than me (and probably more so than anyone on this forum) for their reasons for the preferred South site.

Bingo, although some of your distances are off.

Originally Posted by A-town

I was driving through Midtown yesterday when I snapped this picture of a sign up for phase 4 of 12th & Midtown. There hasn't been an announcement made. But the wooden blockades are up like they're about to start construction. Any word on this, or has it been there for a while?

This sign has been up for months, but hopefully there's some movement in the near future. The question is, what will happen to Food Truck Thursdays once construction starts there?

[ATLaffinity]

Archer moving to Atlantic Station

Floyd County Productions is the work of Matt Thompson and Adam Reed, creator of the acclaimed FX show. The company employs 110 artists with a median age of 25. Earlier this year, FX renewed Archer for another season.



I have to give credit to AS for trying to turn the ship around.

[A-town]

This sign has been up for months, but hopefully there's some movement in the near future. The question is, what will happen to Food Truck Thursdays once construction starts there?[/QUOTE]

Thanks

[Nanosolar]

Does it seem to anyone else that we are only building bs apartments now? Where is the quality construction that will actually last???

[BunkyWay]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

I agree they're building too much in the luxury segment, but an unsustainable boom in luxury apartment development is nowhere near as dangerous as an unsustainable boom in owner-occupied construction. The previous "boom" had people financing purchases at highly inflated values, and it takes years for them to recover financially from those mistakes. The main people who are hurt when apartments are overbuilt are the developers, who go bankrupt and someone else takes over the project, slashing rents ~20%.

So it's better when the developers go bust? I disagree. A huge chunk of this town's economy is derived from real estate, and everyone is affected when that sector suffers. Transactional attorneys such as myself, bankers, private equity analysts, consultants--everyone suffers when a real estate bubble bursts.

Atlanta is a huge market, and we can rent virtually unlimited numbers of 1BR apartments for $1,000-$1,100. 2,500 of them is no big deal. If these guys all fail to get $1,300 a month, it won't be that big of a loss to our city. And, frankly, a lot of our ~1970s construction 2-floor brick apartment complexes scattered about have been jacking up their rents unrealistically in the last couple years, so it will be nice for them to have some downward pressure as the level of competition heats up.

Keep the law of unintended consequences in mind. Apartments tend to attract a transient element as it is, the older complexes even moreso. Perhaps the ability to charge higher rents due to a lack of supply was the only thing keeping those '70s-era complexes from becoming slums.

I'm more concerned (as you might be also) about traffic. Buckhead handling 3,000 units a year or whatever seems impossible. In Midtown we have a building boom of our own going on (maybe 1,000 units/year in a much smaller neighborhood), but at least here I have the option of walking basically everywhere and loling at all the suckers stuck in their cars; in Buckhead, that option generally isn't there (or isn't nearly as appealing).

Traffic is a concern, especially given the fact that Buckhead is essentially a '50s-era office park that was not designed to contain this kind of density. I'm more concerned about the subpar construction standards and transient populations that go along with apartments. How are these apartments going to age? On a positive note, most of the Buckhead apartment developments are towers, which may have a different lifecycle than the cheap, mid-level crap that's been thrown up in West Midtown.

[scania]

Wow!!! Some of you sound like the few friends that I have that are broke and uneducated(meaning no college degree). Complain and criticize about any and everything that you don't believe meets some standard that you couldn't afford anyway. Come on people, this is ridiculous to keep saying that these Novare towers won't last. I'm sure most, if any at all, who are complaining have no proof to back up these statements. What on earth makes you think that Skyhouse wouldn't last the next 30, 40, 50 or so years? Skyhouse is not a cheap tower! And as far as these apartments that have been going up, its the same thing...they are not cheap. All are decent quality. No it's not the most expensive, but why in the hell should it be the most expensive materials. There are homes made of wood that have last 60 years. These apartments can last just as long. So be more positive about things getting built. It's definitely better than what was already in most cases, never there.

[Immovable_Media]

The view of Atlanta's skyline from the top of the parking deck at the Atlanta Garden Inn is spectacular! How beautiful is Midtown looking these days!? Take notice of Skyhouse, 77 12th St & 12th and Midtown...

Midtown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOPvmvL2Q1k
&
Buckhead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq8WQ7WjifA

[scania]

Originally Posted by immovable_media

the view of atlanta's skyline from the top of the parking deck at the atlanta garden inn is spectacular! How beautiful is midtown looking these days!? Take notice of skyhouse, 77 12th st & 12th and midtown...

Midtown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gopvmvl2q1k
&
buckhead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq8wq7wjifa

nice

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by scania

Wow!!! Some of you sound like the few friends that I have that are broke and uneducated(meaning no college degree). Complain and criticize about any and everything that you don't believe meets some standard that you couldn't afford anyway. Come on people, this is ridiculous to keep saying that these Novare towers won't last. I'm sure most, if any at all, who are complaining have no proof to back up these statements. What on earth makes you think that Skyhouse wouldn't last the next 30, 40, 50 or so years? Skyhouse is not a cheap tower! And as far as these apartments that have been going up, its the same thing...they are not cheap. All are decent quality. No it's not the most expensive, but why in the hell should it be the most expensive materials. There are homes made of wood that have last 60 years. These apartments can last just as long. So be more positive about things getting built. It's definitely better than what was already in most cases, never there.

agreed except for a lot of the low-rise construction— a lot of plywood and drywall. it looks cheap. skyhouse, et. al is probably going to be there for a very long time. buildings that tall have to meet different standards and are built to last.

[bigstick]

Originally Posted by scania

Wow!!! Some of you sound like the few friends that I have that are broke and uneducated(meaning no college degree). Complain and criticize about any and everything that you don't believe meets some standard that you couldn't afford anyway. Come on people, this is ridiculous to keep saying that these Novare towers won't last. I'm sure most, if any at all, who are complaining have no proof to back up these statements. What on earth makes you think that Skyhouse wouldn't last the next 30, 40, 50 or so years? Skyhouse is not a cheap tower! And as far as these apartments that have been going up, its the same thing...they are not cheap. All are decent quality. No it's not the most expensive, but why in the hell should it be the most expensive materials. There are homes made of wood that have last 60 years. These apartments can last just as long. So be more positive about things getting built. It's definitely better than what was already in most cases, never there.

I agree, well stated...

[Libertarian]

Scania, good comment. Let's not make the perfect the enemy of the good. Only a select few of you can afford to live in pricey buildings and prime neighborhoods. The rest of us have to make do with convenient, livable solutions.

[delarosa]

Originally Posted by bigstick

I agree, well stated...

I somewhat agree with a little of this, though, personally, I'm not a fan of the aesthetic currently making the rounds.

Quality-wise I can't say in those cases, though I did once buy in an older Novare..they cut a lot of corners, lied to me personally on at least one occasion and gave many owners the runaround when it came to mitigating known issues that everyone was experiencing. A lot of this ended up having to be addressed by an engineering firm at a later date.

Also, it seems that one potential issue with something built to last *only* sixty years is should they be converted to condos at some point. With the typical loan term of 30 years, that'd be only halfway into the life expectancy, assuming it was purchased as new. If a subsequent conversion, then over half. Seems like an issue investment-wise.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by scania

There are homes made of wood that have last 60 years.

One would hope -- that's only 1953. We live in a wood house that's about 90 years old and it's still okay. You just have to paint it periodically.

[Tuckerman]

It is all about maintenance. If you travel to many developing countries you see luxury highrises that are 10 years old that look 50 - almost entirely due to lack of upkeep. But even cheaply built housing can be gradually improved. Many people have moved to new houses that were built with "builder's grade" furnishing (cheap plumbing, cheap fixtures, cheap appliances, etc.). Overtime these have been upgraded by the residents and the housing greatly improved. In the case of high rises and rentals it is mainly a question of day to day maintenance and not letting the little things get out of control. Building associations of tenants are often the catalyst for owners to maintain standards. I have lived in high rise apartments in Boston, Baltimore and Chicago that were built in the 1920's and the difference in quality in each of them was almost entirely attributable to maintenance. In the Baltimore case the live-in manager was a real bulldog (actually it was a she) who kept her eye on everything including maintenance and believe me there was not a scuff on any hall wall. In the Boston case the building was run by an absentee landlord who could care less - ultimately the building, at Copley Sq, was torn down for an extension to the Mass. Pike. So my simple prediction is that if the maintenance and management are good, then the Skyhouse model will last for a long time. In this case, if we have 3 Skyhouses (Midtown, W. Peachtree, and Buckhead) we should have a nice little experiment in comparison.

[DetroitMan]

New hotel planned on Peachtree next to Phipps
Amy WenkStaff Writer- Atlanta Business Chronicle

Retail giant Simon Property Group Inc. is looking to build an Aloft hotel on roughly 1.7 acres that it owns at Peachtree and Wieuca roads in Buckhead, near the Nordstrom department store.

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/print...new-hotel-planned-on-next-to-phipps.html

[ATLaffinity]

Anyone know what's replacing Flor at the Centergy building? Their interior design budget appears to be unlimited.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by DetroitMan

New hotel planned on Peachtree next to Phipps
Amy WenkStaff Writer- Atlanta Business Chronicle


http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/print...new-hotel-planned-on-next-to-phipps.html

Can we declare that the city is experiencing a bona fide building boom?

[micropundit]

According to a Simon company report, Phipps Plaza will undergo a faced facelift to be completed by 2015.

http://simoncorpoverview.com/assets/atlas/properties/4834/82/PropertyOverview.pdf

[bigstick]

Originally Posted by micropundit

According to a Simon company report, Phipps Plaza will undergo a faced facelift to be completed by 2015.

http://simoncorpoverview.com/assets/atlas/properties/4834/82/PropertyOverview.pdf

I like it...........