NEW YORK | Empire Station District | 9 Towers (18-20 msf)| FT | FLOORS

[Crawford]

The existing Midtown PATH terminal at 33rd Street has to be integrated into the Empire Station complex, right?

The current building sitting on Site 6 (Manhattan Mall) is integrated into the existing PATH terminal, so the answer has to be yes, but I haven't seen renderings or specifics. I believe the PATH terminal roughly sits between 30th and 33rd streets, so just the northern end of the station would be integrated with the Empire complex. But there are some development sites along Sixth Ave. southward, so I could see the Empire Station complex expanding in future phases.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The existing Midtown PATH terminal at 33rd Street has to be integrated into the Empire Station complex, right?

The current building sitting on Site 6 (Manhattan Mall) is integrated into the existing PATH terminal, so the answer has to be yes, but I haven't seen renderings or specifics. I believe the PATH terminal roughly sits between 30th and 33rd streets, so just the northern end of the station would be integrated with the Empire complex. But there are some development sites along Sixth Ave. southward, so I could see the Empire Station complex expanding in future phases.

Yes, that’s been the plan since 15 Penn was first proposed, by re-opening the Gimbel’s passageway on 33rd. That’s still on the table, but they’re now saying alternative options are to place that passage on the southside (32nd), or midblock through the 15 Penn sight.

[NYguy]

Stupid article….


https://nypost.com/2021/07/24/nyc-re...-station-plan/

Meet the 92-year-old mogul who could block Cuomo’s billion-dollar Penn Station plan





By Dana Kennedy
July 24, 2021

Steve Roth, the 80-year-old billionaire real estate mogul, has a dream.

With the blessing of Gov. Andrew Cuomo, he wants to raze much of the area around Penn Station and put up 10 skyscrapers.

But 92-year-old Arnold Gumowitz is ready to spoil the relative whippersnapper’s hopes.

The real-estate mogul owns 421 Seventh Avenue, an office building across from Madison Square Garden that will need to be demolished if Roth’s controversial glass and steel supertalls are to happen.

But Gumowitz doesn’t want to sell the 15-story structure that he bought 43 years ago. It’s where he runs his commercial real estate empire, and where he still comes to work with his son every day.

He also definitely doesn’t want it demolished by eminent domain, a possibility he just found out about recently when he saw plans for the project with a drawing of a roughly 80-story tower in place of his own building.

“I look for fairness but when someone attacks me, I respond,” Gumowitz told The Post. “This is a generational piece of property. This is also a piece of real New York. I also hate to see this area become another impersonal Hudson Yards with nothing but tall buildings and no sunlight.”

Because the state declared the area “blighted” a year ago, Roth’s Vornado Realty and the Empire State Development Corp (ESD) — the state agency directing the project for Cuomo — have the right to tear down certain blocks in the designated area. At least 200 people will lose their homes and 9,000 employees will be out of work if the project goes ahead.

Gumowitz’ building sits at a critical spot for the planned Empire Station project: it’s in an area where the state wants to build a subway entrance and enlarge the sidewalk.

State officials, while cagey about whether they’d take Gumowitz’s building by eminent domain, indicated in a recent community board hearing on the issue that it’s a card they could play if they had to.

But to employ eminent domain, the ESD’s plan would have to undergo another review process, and a public hearing, said an official who did not want to be named.

They could also acquire the building through a negotiated sale.

Gumowitz has met with Roth twice to suss him out. Once, the two had lunch at Roth’s palatial digs at 220 Central Park South, on Billionaire’s Row, where they ate poached salmon in the library, surrounded by Roth’s expensive art collection. “We’re two poor kids from the Bronx,” Gumowitz told The Post, with a laugh.

Then Gumowitz invited Roth to the 421 Seventh Avenue conference room for tuna sandwiches and chocolate chip cookies. Gumowitz said Roth offered an “insulting price” for the building, so “Why should I sell?”

His longtime attorney, who, he said, fought many legal battles for him, died last summer. But he still loves coming to work, and has no plans to retire — or move, Cuomo and Roth be damned.

“I love being able to just walk over to the Garden to see the Knicks play,” he said. “I love that I don’t even have to give people an address. I can just say we’re a block from Macy’s. We’ve got a unique home here.

“Let them try to get me out.”

[JMKeynes]

I sincerely hope that this horrible eyesore, and that entire cancerous block, is razed.

[Hudson11]

"this is also a piece of real New York"

• Video Link

[Sky88]

So, on Site 6 we could have an 80-story tower.

[DCReid]

I kind of hope it fails with this sterile ordinary superblock-like proposal. Manhattan's cluttered, old, busy and energetic vibe comes from many of these old nondescript blocks, not some fantasy-land buildings with fake plazas.
Seems like the same mentality that knocked down the original Penn Station building to construct the hideous MSG and plaza. If anything, they should knock down MSG and the plaza, which I know is wishful thinking. One or two new buildings are fine, as far as I am concerned, but they don't have to develop whole blocks here.

[jbermingham123]

Originally Posted by DCReid

I kind of hope it fails with this sterile ordinary superblock-like proposal. Manhattan's cluttered, old, busy and energetic vibe comes from many of these old nondescript blocks, not some fantasy-land buildings with fake plazas.
Seems like the same mentality that knocked down the original Penn Station building to construct the hideous MSG and plaza. If anything, they should knock down MSG and the plaza, which I know is wishful thinking. One or two new buildings are fine, as far as I am concerned, but they don't have to develop whole blocks here.

yeah he has a good point about the sterility of many large developments... especially as someone who was alive when all the massive "urban renewal" projects like stuytown and pc village were mass-produced. i can kind of see how the new WTC collection and Hudson Yards and now possibly Empire Station District, when taken together, start to seem less impressive and more... fake. If 1 Vanderbilt is the 21st century's ESB or Chrysler, then HY, WTC, and ESD are the 21st century's original world trade center.

that said, those blocks need to go. I just hope what replaces them has less glass and more stone

[SkyHigher]

Originally Posted by jbermingham123

i can kind of see how the new WTC collection and Hudson Yards and now possibly Empire Station District, when taken together, start to seem less impressive and more... fake

I preferred your original post. I logged in just to like it. You said something like 1V is like this century's ESB and new WTC, Hudson Yards and this project are this centuries original WTC. How depressing. How far NYC has fallen.

You just know 2WTC will be another f**k up. Arguably the best building in the complex. Nah let's redesign it. Piss more money down the toilet. More value engineering no doubt.

20 years ago NYC lost it's twin icons and nothing built since has come close and likely never will.

So yeh, keep these inevitable shiny crappy blue super talls away from ESB as much as possible please.

[jbermingham123]

Originally Posted by SkyHigher

I preferred your original post. I logged in just to like it. You said something like 1V is like this century's ESB and new WTC, Hudson Yards and this project are this centuries original WTC. How depressing. How far NYC has fallen.

Thank you! Its back now

Originally Posted by SkyHigher

You just know 2WTC will be another f**k up. Arguably the best building in the complex. Nah let's redesign it. Piss more money down the toilet. More value engineering no doubt.

20 years ago NYC lost it's twin icons and nothing built since has come close and likely never will.

So yeh, keep these inevitable shiny crappy blue super talls away from ESB as much as possible please.

Yeah Im very pro development, and pro tall and very tall buildings.. but i place character above all else. 99 Church Street, 220 CPS, and even 432 park (in a weird sort of way) are proof that its possible to build tall, modern buildings which either preserve the character of the shorter buildings they replace or reflect the character of the city they're in.

I can picture the wtc complex just about anywhere, as well as most of HY. The only detail that gives those away as new york buildings are their lack of curves. But i cant picture 432 park, for example, in any other city on earth. Stylistically, its not outlandishly flashy enough for asia and the middle east, but too outlandishly tall for anywhere else.. only NYC can pull it off. Maybe toronto could soon but not yet.

My ideal ESD complex would be either stone alone or glass and stone together, with no buildings completely glass. No curves, or at least very few of them, and plenty of setbacks (another iconic NY motif), even if they're just tiny and stylistic. The tallest buildings should also be furthest away from the ESB, even if all the buildings are supertalls. And, finally, all the buildings need crowns; even if the roofs are flat, at least sort of slope up to them with interesting setbacks like 30 Rock.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by DCReid

I kind of hope it fails with this sterile ordinary superblock-like proposal. Manhattan's cluttered, old, busy and energetic vibe comes from many of these old nondescript blocks, not some fantasy-land buildings with fake plazas.
Seems like the same mentality that knocked down the original Penn Station building to construct the hideous MSG and plaza. If anything, they should knock down MSG and the plaza, which I know is wishful thinking. One or two new buildings are fine, as far as I am concerned, but they don't have to develop whole blocks here.

true and the whole thing is just because no one has the stones to shove the dolans out of there and knock out msg. i mean they are going to eminent domain here and eminent domain there, but not the garden? makes no #%@*ing sense. well, it does ... when you consider the fix is in, not what's best for penn station redevelopment.

[mrnyc]

here was the amny take on the public preso:


Promises of improved pedestrian space as part of Empire Station Complex take shape

https://www.amny.com/news/promises-o...ex-take-shape/

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by DCReid

I kind of hope it fails with this sterile ordinary superblock-like proposal. Manhattan's cluttered, old, busy and energetic vibe comes from many of these old nondescript blocks, not some fantasy-land buildings with fake plazas.

There will be only one plaza, and that is necessary given the amount of density added to the area. If it could be done, many of Manhattan's densest blocks would be given enough room for people to move about a little more freely, and less opportunity for New Yorkers to gripe about tourists clogging the streets though it would still be crowded. But here, they'll actually be getting rid of plazas (around 1 Penn) and are not building on a blank slate, such as Hudson Yards, which itself was a desolate land of railyards and parking lots, if that could be considered descript of the Big Apple. (I think not).

Actually what we have here is what New York is, skyscrapers on city blocks. You may not like modern skyscrapers of glass, but that's the way it's been since the middle of last century. Skyscrapers built into the fabric of the existing city.

Originally Posted by jbermingham123

i can kind of see how the new WTC collection and Hudson Yards and now possibly Empire Station District, when taken together, start to seem less impressive and more... fake.

The Hudson Yards and WTC were built on blank slates. The original WTC was built at a time when there was massive urban renewal. But contrary to what a lot of people think, there is more life built around the WTC site now than at anytime in it's history. That's due in large part to a shift of residential development Downtown.

Originally Posted by mrnyc

true and the whole thing is just because no one has the stones to shove the dolans out of there and knock out msg. i mean they are going to eminent domain here and eminent domain there, but not the garden? makes no #%@*ing sense. well, it does ... when you consider the fix is in, not what's best for penn station redevelopment.

What you fail to understand is that this particular development is about increasing Penn Station capacity. They could knock down MSG, 2 Penn Plaza, and rebuilt the original Penn Station and make it look 10 times better than it ever has. But that won't do a single thing to increase the capacity. THAT's what this project is about.

Now, the fact of the matter is, there is no realistic alternative for a relocation of MSG. The City knows it, it's why MSG still stands where it does, and will continue to. It doesn't have to remain the eyesore that it is, but that's another issue.

[TonyNYC]

Now, the fact of the matter is, there is no realistic alternative for a relocation of MSG. The City knows it, it's why MSG still stands where it does, and will continue to. It doesn't have to remain the eyesore that it is, but that's another issue.[/QUOTE]



Kinda liked the plans/vision to move MSG a block over, between Broadway and 7th Ave/W 33-W 34th Street.. that plan would've been epic and the Dolan's would've luved being so centrally located. The western portion of the Farley Post Office woudl've been perfect, too bad they dropped the ball on that plan!

[DCReid]

Originally Posted by TonyNYC

Now, the fact of the matter is, there is no realistic alternative for a relocation of MSG. The City knows it, it's why MSG still stands where it does, and will continue to. It doesn't have to remain the eyesore that it is, but that's another issue.

Kinda liked the plans/vision to move MSG a block over, between Broadway and 7th Ave/W 33-W 34th Street.. that plan would've been epic and the Dolan's would've luved being so centrally located. The western portion of the Farley Post Office woudl've been perfect, too bad they dropped the ball on that plan![/QUOTE]

When NYC planned a bid for the 2012 Olympics, the idea was to build the opening stadium as part of the Hudson Yards development. I think it would have made sense to move MSG there, as it would have been next to the Javits center and could be used concurrently for conventions. It could have been more of an entertainment district, with hotels to complement both. It's too bad that it no longer seems an option even for the remaining track site. Yes, Hudson Yards is very successful, but a MSG development would probably have worked with the new subway stop. And the existing MSC could have anchored redevelopment of the Penn Station area with office and retail space that may have been as successful since the transit access is excellent.

[Busy Bee]

Still not sure why people dismiss the notion that a new MSG could be built on top of the new PABT. Are we seriously saying that location doesn't have the same transit access as above Penn?

[Crawford]

PABT is zoned for millions of square ft. of office space. How are you gonna put the world's largest bus terminal, a two giant office supertalls, and an arena all on the same site? And all sitting on top of the huge Times Square-PABT subway complex?

I hate where MSG is currently located, but I don't think there's a viable place to move it right now, at least in Manhattan, and near rail transit.

[JMKeynes]

Originally Posted by Crawford

PABT is zoned for millions of square ft. of office space. How are you gonna put the world's largest bus terminal, a two giant office supertalls, and an arena all on the same site? And all sitting on top of the huge Times Square-PABT subway complex?

I hate where MSG is currently located, but I don't think there's a viable place to move it right now, at least in Manhattan, and near rail transit.

MSG should be in the Bronx by Yankee Stadium or in Queens by the 7 train in LIC.

[UrbanImpact]

Originally Posted by JMKeynes

MSG should be in the Bronx by Yankee Stadium or in Queens by the 7 train in LIC.

Your opinion, but, it would be a huge loss of events from Manhattan.

My opinion is for a remodel below and above.

[Zerton]

The irony is that within a decade of all this being complete MSG will probably decide to finally move.