Winnipeg Ice

[esquire]

Was poking around the HFBoards yesterday with all the Jets hullabaloo and noticed this interesting post regarding the ICE from user 'jimsabo21' who has also posted in this forum using the same handle:

"Greg Fettes is a close personal friend of mine.

He paid out of his own pocket for all the renos at U of M which the University benefits from. They absolutely had plans to build a new rink. They didn't even make it through one season before Covid cancelled (March 2020). The 2nd season was cancelled altogether. The third season was near normal (aside from the mask mandates and vaccine QR code checks).

Here's the truth: Construction cost for a new facilty rose from ~45mm (pre-Covid) to nearly ~70mm (post covid). Interest rates went from 2.5% to nearly 6.5% on commercial projects. At 70% financing, the project went from:

Pre-Covid
45MM facility @ 30% equity = $13,500,000 cash
Annual carrying costs @ 2% = $650,000 per year

Post Covid
70MM facility @ 30% equity = $21,000,000 cash
Annual Carrying cost @ 6.5% = $3,200,000 per year

All of a sudden, you need 21mm in cash (instead of the 13mm) and the carrying costs on a new facility jumped to $3,200,000 per season!

Since you're so involved with the Urban Reserve, you must know that none of the land will ever be sold. There was no way for Fettes to buy the land. The Urban Reserve will own everything on that property and lease it to owners. It's nonsense to think that anyone will build a sports facility with private money on land they don't own. They could never *sell it* to anyone. The plan was a long term lease if it came to fruition.

They also had another location (near Route 90) where they had an option on land and explored every option to make it work but the costs of building post-Covid made it impossible.

Lastly, the reason it all collapsed so quickly was because they had a major plan to blow out a wall of Max Bell, build a half bowl, new concessions, washrooms, observation area. The price tag was $20,000,000 and was fully financed by the Ice owners. It would have brought capacity to 3800. The U of M was 100% onboard. They presented this to the WHL board as a last ditch alternative to a new building. The WHL formally rejected this proposal only 14 days ago stating it didn't meet their standard of 5000 seats. That was the nail in the coffin.

This is the true story of the Winnipeg Ice.

Fettes is an incredibly generous man and has given so much to this city. There isn't a cause or fundraising drive that happens in this town without him being a major donor. They have 25,000 employees and are by far the largest contact centre in the world with offices is dozens of countries. He chooses to make Winnipeg home and keeps in 247 InTouch headquarters in Winnipeg."

Well this certainly sheds a lot of light on things. It's easy to see why the new arena proposal fell apart. It's also very interesting that the Wayne Fleming Arena was, according to this post at least, a live proposal... I speculated about it but I had no idea that the wheels were actually turning on it. It would have made such good sense and it would have been a huge boon for the U of M. Instead the WHL ditched Winnipeg and the 3,400 seat U of M proposal for an extra 900 seats at the Town Toyota Center in Wenatchee.

The more this fades into the background, the more it becomes clear that the WHL was more interested in bolstering its US division with another geographically convenient rival than it was in working to realize the potential of a large but outlying market like Winnipeg.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by esquire

Was poking around the HFBoards yesterday with all the Jets hullabaloo and noticed this interesting post regarding the ICE from user 'jimsabo21' who has also posted in this forum using the same handle:

"Greg Fettes is a close personal friend of mine.

He paid out of his own pocket for all the renos at U of M which the University benefits from. They absolutely had plans to build a new rink. They didn't even make it through one season before Covid cancelled (March 2020). The 2nd season was cancelled altogether. The third season was near normal (aside from the mask mandates and vaccine QR code checks).

Here's the truth: Construction cost for a new facilty rose from ~45mm (pre-Covid) to nearly ~70mm (post covid). Interest rates went from 2.5% to nearly 6.5% on commercial projects. At 70% financing, the project went from:

Pre-Covid
45MM facility @ 30% equity = $13,500,000 cash
Annual carrying costs @ 2% = $650,000 per year

Post Covid
70MM facility @ 30% equity = $21,000,000 cash
Annual Carrying cost @ 6.5% = $3,200,000 per year

All of a sudden, you need 21mm in cash (instead of the 13mm) and the carrying costs on a new facility jumped to $3,200,000 per season!

Since you're so involved with the Urban Reserve, you must know that none of the land will ever be sold. There was no way for Fettes to buy the land. The Urban Reserve will own everything on that property and lease it to owners. It's nonsense to think that anyone will build a sports facility with private money on land they don't own. They could never *sell it* to anyone. The plan was a long term lease if it came to fruition.

They also had another location (near Route 90) where they had an option on land and explored every option to make it work but the costs of building post-Covid made it impossible.

Lastly, the reason it all collapsed so quickly was because they had a major plan to blow out a wall of Max Bell, build a half bowl, new concessions, washrooms, observation area. The price tag was $20,000,000 and was fully financed by the Ice owners. It would have brought capacity to 3800. The U of M was 100% onboard. They presented this to the WHL board as a last ditch alternative to a new building. The WHL formally rejected this proposal only 14 days ago stating it didn't meet their standard of 5000 seats. That was the nail in the coffin.

This is the true story of the Winnipeg Ice.

Fettes is an incredibly generous man and has given so much to this city. There isn't a cause or fundraising drive that happens in this town without him being a major donor. They have 25,000 employees and are by far the largest contact centre in the world with offices is dozens of countries. He chooses to make Winnipeg home and keeps in 247 InTouch headquarters in Winnipeg."

Well this certainly sheds a lot of light on things. It's easy to see why the new arena proposal fell apart. It's also very interesting that the Wayne Fleming Arena was, according to this post at least, a live proposal... I speculated about it but I had no idea that the wheels were actually turning on it. It would have made such good sense and it would have been a huge boon for the U of M. Instead the WHL ditched Winnipeg and the 3,400 seat U of M proposal for an extra 900 seats at the Town Toyota Center in Wenatchee.

The more this fades into the background, the more it becomes clear that the WHL was more interested in bolstering its US division with another geographically convenient rival than it was in working to realize the potential of a large but outlying market like Winnipeg.

Man such a sad story.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Man such a sad story.

Yeah, I realize Fettes is a very rich dude so no one is going to hold a tag day for him, but man. That's a lot of money he sank into a) improvements at Wayne Fleming Arena b) the ICE facility at The Rink c) keeping the team afloat through the bubble season when there were virtually no revenues. He'll never get that back... I'd be shocked if franchise values appreciated enough over the last 5 or 6 years to make a dent in all those costs.

And after all that, all he got from the WHL was a kick in the ass.

[thurmas]

I can't believe they turned down the reno idea as 3800 seats would have been excellent

[esquire]

^ I wonder if there are any renderings... a FIPPA request to the U of M could be fun, haha.

EDIT: I took my own advice and sent in a FIPPA request. We'll see what it turns up. Hold off on locking this thread, mods. Maybe I'll have something interesting to share in a month or two.

[CoryB]

I think WHL truly missed their shot at the Winnipeg market. They really needed the Ice to be here in the early Jets 2.0 days when the hockey hype balloon was on max and the Moose where out on The Rock. There was enough captive demand they could have established themselves as the step down team from the Jets in terms of fan attendance. Once True North got the approval to bring the Moose home that window closed, and potentially for good. A WHL team in Winnipeg always seemed to make sense but it needs to be priced at a point it is below the NHL level team.

[esquire]

^ Yeah, I've said it before but in some respects Fettes and Cockell couldn't have timed the relocation of the ICE to Winnipeg much worse. The Jets were still riding the high of the 2018 playoff run and their championship window was still considered to be open. And the Moose were already in town by then to siphon off people who were looking for a lower cost hockey alternative.

They were already having a tough time finding traction in a crowded market and then boom, covid hit. Could have been a much different story had the team arrived at any point in time when there was only one other major team in the market, either the Moose or the Jets.

[esquire]

My dawg Zach Benson, drafted by Buffalo to join ICE teammates Peyton Krebs and Matt Savoie. Thanks for the memories, Zach!

[esquire]

Here's some insight regarding what was being pitched for the Wayne Fleming Arena. Apparently Ernst Hansch and Perkins & Will were involved in an arena expansion project which goes back at least as far as 2021 judging by the dates on the drawings:

[esquire]

A few thoughts:

-The expansion appears focused on improved team facilities. Something that the ICE could have sorely used and that the Bisons could still use. I wonder if this might not happen either way given that it could allow the U of M to significantly extend the life of the 40 year old arena?

-The Ernst Hansch drawings do speak to some additional seats, but it's pretty marginal. More seating behind the nets, what appears to be a small balcony running alongside the ice, and some suites on the blank end. Total number of additional seats: 812. That would not have gotten them to 3,400 as mentioned by 'jimsabo21', although the Perkins & Will drawings only show the dressing room level and not the upper levels, it's possible more seating was contemplated there, or perhaps there was another separate expansion plan hatched.

-In hindsight, the ICE should have built this dressing room improvement at Wayne Fleming for day one in 2019 instead of basically building the same thing at The Rink where they never did anything other than practice.

All things considered it was a fairly modest expansion concept. What we see here probably wouldn't have done much to change the fundamentals for a WHL team playing at Wayne Fleming Arena.

[thurmas]

A rink near rec room at seasons of tuxedo probably would have worked much better but costs are just too high these days