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  #4661  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2024, 3:30 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
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Originally Posted by lakeshoredrive View Post
I hope the DNC goes well next week. Saw a bunch of helicopters flying low around my area this morning.
At least of those are "nuke sniffers" that have passive radiation detection equipment on board.
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  #4662  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2024, 12:42 PM
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Kudos to our city's police department for keeping control of the potentially volatile DNC protests, and preserving order.

Despite all of the fear-mongering that this was gonna be '68 all over again, it didn't come to pass, thank God!

Black eye for the city successfully avoided.

Thank you, Larry Snelling.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Aug 23, 2024 at 2:34 PM.
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  #4663  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2024, 2:49 PM
Halsted & Villagio Halsted & Villagio is offline
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
Kudos to our city's police department for keeping control of the potentially volatile DNC protests, and preserving order.

Despite all of the fear-mongering that this was gonna be '68 all over again, it didn't come to pass, thank God!

Black eye for the city successfully avoided.

Thank you, Larry Snelling.
Here, here Steely I had confidence that it would all go well but I would be less than candid if I did not admit that I was a little bit on pins and needles all week. We can all breathe a collective sigh of relief now. Not only was a black eye avoided but, dare I say, I believe this city lifted its national/international profile in a positive way for a change. We drove a stake through the heart of boogeyman flame throwers!

Kudos to Governor Pritzker, to our Mayor, to our Police Chief, and so many others.... and to the citizens of our great city. Well done!
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  #4664  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2024, 6:10 PM
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Brandon has thrown in the towel on Sigcho-Lopez for zoning!!!

Looks like it's gonna be a reluctant Burnett instead, thank god.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/city-ha...walter-burnett
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  #4665  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2024, 6:57 PM
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Thank God! Sigcho-Lopez and Ramirez-Rosa are the absolute worst people to put in charge of zoning. We need *more* development in this city. Blocking development only increases the cost of housing in the city. Something so simple, and yet they clearly do not appear to understand.
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  #4666  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2024, 2:45 PM
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The fact that Johnson refused to renew ShotSpotter’s contract is quite disappointing, and I wish people would discuss it more because it’s such a vital tool. Yes, there are other comparable technologies that could be used, and yes, the City could adopt one of the alternatives for a better deal. But Johnson and his team have had plenty of time to come up with alternatives, and now there’s nothing. Average Chicagoans will suffer because of such thoughtless leadership and mismanagement on the mayor’s part. I didn’t think Johnson’s tenure could get worse, but here we are. It’s ridiculously shameful.
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  #4667  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2024, 6:01 PM
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Ugh.... it's gonna be a long fucking 2.5 years......
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  #4668  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2024, 6:39 PM
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Don't forget we have a $900+ million deficit for next year too!

Get ready for a garbage budget to get proposed from Johnson that will surely cater to the CTU and their stooges with potential tax increases for everyone else in the city through property tax increases.

For his part, Pritzker has basically said no to offering any help from Springfield.

I'm getting the vibe that Pritzker has nothing but disdain for Johnson given how he responds to Johnson's proposed ideas......
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  #4669  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2024, 3:46 PM
moorhosj1 moorhosj1 is offline
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Originally Posted by sentinel View Post
The fact that Johnson refused to renew ShotSpotter’s contract is quite disappointing, and I wish people would discuss it more because it’s such a vital tool.
I've never seen a coherent explanation for why it is vital, only scaremongering. You would think the company would be able to make a clear case for the value of their product.

On the other hand, I have seen a bunch of research on how it doesn't help lower gun violence.

Quote:
In May 2021, the MacArthur Justice Center released a study that found most ShotSpotter alerts turn up no evidence of gunfire or any gun-related crime but instead send police on thousands of unfounded and high-intensity deployments, which are focused almost exclusively in Black and Brown communities. The researchers found that 89% of ShotSpotter deployments in Chicago turned up no gun-related crime and 86% led to no report of any crime at all.
Quote:
One study published in April in the peer-reviewed Journal of Urban Health examined ShotSpotter in 68 large, metropolitan counties from 1999 to 2016, the largest review to date. It found that the technology didn’t reduce gun violence or increase community safety.

“The evidence that we’ve produced suggests that the technology does not reduce firearm violence in the long-term, and the implementation of the technology does not lead to increased murder or weapons-related arrests,” said lead author Mitch Doucette.
Quote:
Another study published in November, by Michael Topper and Toshio Ferrazares, PhD students at the University of California, Santa Barbara, looking at Chicago, found that after the roll-out of Shotspotter the police responded to 9/11 calls two minutes slower than before, and in the case of domestic-violence calls made fewer arrests. Ralph Clark, the CEO of SoundThinking, says people who think the tool is directly able to prevent violent crime are “singularly misinformed”.
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  #4670  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2024, 12:53 PM
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I think Shotspotter is far over-selling what its sensors can do. Acoustic propagation unfortunately is quite complicated, and I think they're partially in the business of providing "evidence" to police when convenient. It's too bad because if the technology actually worked well it would be helpful.
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  #4671  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2024, 1:31 PM
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Originally Posted by moorhosj1 View Post
the MacArthur Justice Center
No agenda there....


Anyway, whatever the actual usefulness of shotspotter is/was, I place a whole hell of a lot more stock in the opinion of our city's police chief about the system than I do the opinion of our ultra left-wing kook of a mayor.
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  #4672  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2024, 2:10 PM
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^That's basically my opinion on Shotspotter as well. . . I'm no expert so I'll defer to those that are and use it every day. . .

. . .
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  #4673  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2024, 5:51 PM
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I don't see any reason why a Shotspotter technology couldn't work and be helpful, even if the current implementation doesn't work today. I'd be curious if the issue is differentiating fireworks vs gunshot, but I assume that's where analysis of the soundwave should be far more accurate than the human ear. And similar to satellite geolocation, if there are enough Shotspotter mics then they should be able to triangulate and pinpoint where the shots are coming from. This would be far better than relying on 911 calls; every couple months in the summer we wake up to a series of gunshots at 4am but feel helpless because the shots could be coming from any direction. Quarter mile radius? half mile radius? no fucking clue. Hoping that 911 uses the location of various reports to identify a general region where the shots may have come from, which is why we bother to call it in, but it seems doubtful they do anything even that sophisticated.
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  #4674  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2024, 6:19 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
I think Shotspotter is far over-selling what its sensors can do. Acoustic propagation unfortunately is quite complicated, and I think they're partially in the business of providing "evidence" to police when convenient. It's too bad because if the technology actually worked well it would be helpful.
The technology behind shotspotter is incredibly simple and the audio of each shot can be reviewed. Very few are false. It gives location down to a few feet along with the number of rounds fired. There is little ambiguity in the audio profile of gunfire.

The purpose is to allow emergency services to respond to the area of gunfire quickly, determine if someone is still shooting or if someone is shot and needs help.

The vast majority of time there is gunfire in most cities, it's because some jackass is shooting his gun on his porch or in an alley or popping off rounds in a vacant lot. The reason there is no evidence collected about 7 out of 8 times after a shotspotter report is because the gunfire did not result in property damage or injury. About one out of 8 times someone may have been shot or shot at and they need people to help them.

Before shotspotter, the only way emergency services knew about gunfire was when someone called it in. A lot of those reports are cars, fireworks or construction. With shotspotter, police aren't called to nearly as many places where there isn't gunfire. A family party with fireworks is where you don't want armed police showing up. Shotspotter makes that less likely to happen. And if there is gunfire and you don't want police responding as rapidly as possible, then you are on the side of pain, disorder and violence.

The reason there is an anti-shotspotter megaphone is the simple belief that it’s racist to police high-crime neighborhoods. This is very odd to me — what would be racist would be abandoning the victims! With or without ShotSpotter that’s where cops should be. Poor cities and high crime neighborhoods are underpoliced. What I would love to see is a city partnering with someone to do a proper evaluation of ShotSpotter. Critics generate a negative evaluation of ShotSpotter by counting every incident of gunfire that doesn’t involve an identified shooting victim as a “false positive” which is dumb. What we want to know is whether alerting cops to those shootings helps reduce crime.
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  #4675  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2024, 6:21 PM
galleyfox galleyfox is offline
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Originally Posted by BrinChi View Post
I don't see any reason why a Shotspotter technology couldn't work and be helpful, even if the current implementation doesn't work today. I'd be curious if the issue is differentiating fireworks vs gunshot, but I assume that's where analysis of the soundwave should be far more accurate than the human ear. And similar to satellite geolocation, if there are enough Shotspotter mics then they should be able to triangulate and pinpoint where the shots are coming from. This would be far better than relying on 911 calls; every couple months in the summer we wake up to a series of gunshots at 4am but feel helpless because the shots could be coming from any direction. Quarter mile radius? half mile radius? no fucking clue. Hoping that 911 uses the location of various reports to identify a general region where the shots may have come from, which is why we bother to call it in, but it seems doubtful they do anything even that sophisticated.
The Shotspotter tech works quite well honestly. I’ve seen it personally in action on the streets three separate times for shooting incidents. I’ve never seen a response for fireworks.

The issue is that criminals firing into the air or in alleys, or doing drive bys against property for fun with no witnesses or victims around are extremely common.

The missing ballistic evidence turns up a year later lodged in someone’s garage half a mile away long after the police report had been filed for “no evidence found.”

911 calls are 100 times more useless because no human can pinpoint the exact location of shots fired.

It’s not so much that Shotspotter reduces crime by itself, so much as it saves lives by locating victims who are bleeding out in an alley unnoticed by witnesses.
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  #4676  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2024, 6:51 PM
twister244 twister244 is offline
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Originally Posted by galleyfox View Post
The Shotspotter tech works quite well honestly. I’ve seen it personally in action on the streets three separate times for shooting incidents. I’ve never seen a response for fireworks.

The issue is that criminals firing into the air or in alleys, or doing drive bys against property for fun with no witnesses or victims around are extremely common.

The missing ballistic evidence turns up a year later lodged in someone’s garage half a mile away long after the police report had been filed for “no evidence found.”

911 calls are 100 times more useless because no human can pinpoint the exact location of shots fired.

It’s not so much that Shotspotter reduces crime by itself, so much as it saves lives by locating victims who are bleeding out in an alley unnoticed by witnesses.
I think Ordo makes a good point though...... Even if it's just people firing guns into the air and there are no victims - That in itself is useful information.

If we know where shots are being fired the most around the city - That makes it easier to allocate police resources to the said areas.

Why you would want to throw the baby with the bathwater out is beyond me......
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  #4677  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2024, 7:51 PM
galleyfox galleyfox is offline
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Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
I think Ordo makes a good point though...... Even if it's just people firing guns into the air and there are no victims - That in itself is useful information.

If we know where shots are being fired the most around the city - That makes it easier to allocate police resources to the said areas.

Why you would want to throw the baby with the bathwater out is beyond me......
I fully agree with Ordo.

Unfortunately, the driving force behind the anti-shotspotter sentiment is mostly just anti police sentiment, so impacted neighborhoods will just have to grit their teeth over vague 911 calls until a new administration takes office.

Personally I think gentrification, prosecution and courts have a bigger impact on how many shootings take place than shotspotter and 911.
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  #4678  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2024, 2:02 PM
moorhosj1 moorhosj1 is offline
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A family party with fireworks is where you don't want armed police showing up. Shotspotter makes that less likely to happen. And if there is gunfire and you don't want police responding as rapidly as possible, then you are on the side of pain, disorder and violence.
You guys are helping to prove point. This claim has no supporting evidence and plainly states that if you disagree, you support more violence. The entirety of the argument is an appeal to emotion, with no data provided to support the conclusion.

I provided three separate studies showing it's limited effectiveness, but those just get thrown aside because of perceived bias. As if the police aren't also biased to support more funding for their department.

Ordo specifically called out the "benefit" of emergency services getting somewhere faster. The article I shared has the data. In the first 8 months of 2024, there were almost 30,000 Shot Spotter alerts. From those, 143 victims received aid. 136 of those (95%) also had a 911 call. That means that 29,850 times, there was no victim. That seems like a lot of wasted resources. I'm open to seeing more data, but nobody has provided it in this discussion.

I'm not saying that ShotSpotter doesn't work, I am saying that nobody has ever proven that it works. That is probably why cities (Charlotte, San Antonio, Atlanta, etc.) continue to cancel contracts. Do we believe violence in Chicago has improved since the implementation of ShotSpotter in 2012?
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  #4679  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2024, 4:16 PM
galleyfox galleyfox is offline
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Originally Posted by moorhosj1 View Post
You guys are helping to prove point. This claim has no supporting evidence and plainly states that if you disagree, you support more violence. The entirety of the argument is an appeal to emotion, with no data provided to support the conclusion.

I provided three separate studies showing it's limited effectiveness, but those just get thrown aside because of perceived bias. As if the police aren't also biased to support more funding for their department.

Ordo specifically called out the "benefit" of emergency services getting somewhere faster. The article I shared has the data. In the first 8 months of 2024, there were almost 30,000 Shot Spotter alerts. From those, 143 victims received aid. 136 of those (95%) also had a 911 call. That means that 29,850 times, there was no victim. That seems like a lot of wasted resources. I'm open to seeing more data, but nobody has provided it in this discussion.


5% of victims who did not receive a 911 call is a *lot* of people.

Just because there was no victim on scene does not mean nothing criminal happened. Shootings are A-Okay as long as nobody was unlucky enough nearby to get shot is hardly a convincing argument.

Residents are still calling 911 for shots fired regardless if there’s a victim, and now there’s no location to give until an actual attempted homicide has occurred.

I’ve noticed that none of these studies are comparing 911 reports of shots heard compared to Shotspotter alerts which makes them disingenuous studies.

UPDATE: For example, already a gunshot murder victim this week lying unnoticed in an alley for over a day.
https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2...far-south-side

Last edited by galleyfox; Sep 28, 2024 at 10:10 PM.
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  #4680  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2024, 4:26 PM
twister244 twister244 is offline
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Originally Posted by moorhosj1 View Post
You guys are helping to prove point. This claim has no supporting evidence and plainly states that if you disagree, you support more violence. The entirety of the argument is an appeal to emotion, with no data provided to support the conclusion.

I provided three separate studies showing it's limited effectiveness, but those just get thrown aside because of perceived bias. As if the police aren't also biased to support more funding for their department.

Ordo specifically called out the "benefit" of emergency services getting somewhere faster. The article I shared has the data. In the first 8 months of 2024, there were almost 30,000 Shot Spotter alerts. From those, 143 victims received aid. 136 of those (95%) also had a 911 call. That means that 29,850 times, there was no victim. That seems like a lot of wasted resources. I'm open to seeing more data, but nobody has provided it in this discussion.

I'm not saying that ShotSpotter doesn't work, I am saying that nobody has ever proven that it works. That is probably why cities (Charlotte, San Antonio, Atlanta, etc.) continue to cancel contracts. Do we believe violence in Chicago has improved since the implementation of ShotSpotter in 2012?
I haven't had time to read the studies, but was this simply emergency responders responding to the alerts that come in? Or was there any effort to try to learn patterns from the data?

That's where I think the value comes in, as I posted before..... If you have enough data over a year, you can begin to learn where you should allocate/shift police resources around. If there's a neighborhood that shows an anomalously high amount of alerts - Wouldn't it make sense to deploy more resources there?
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