Burnaby Updates

[Migrant_Coconut]

Should be possible to traffic-calm Willingdon... in about 15-ish years when the North Shore SkyTrain opens.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Should be possible to traffic-calm Willingdon... in about 15-ish years when the North Shore SkyTrain opens.

Coming sooner with the BRT line taking over two lanes.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by madog222

Coming sooner with the BRT line taking over two lanes.

Not sure what you mean by "coming soon", as two lanes of Willingdon are already "van lanes".

[ecbin]

Originally Posted by NetMapel

My hot take with all these Brentwood and Metrotown projects is that some of their main/anchor roads are getting pretty “stroad-y” now. As in, those are officially recognized dense urban centres by the City of Burnaby and deserve “complete streets”. Brentwood is centred around Willingdon Ave and Lougheed Hwy. Metrotown got Kingsway. You have a lot of parking lots, street crossings and side parkings around those roads that they have lost their purpose as being efficient fast roads for cars. Fast car speed and healthy dense urban centres simply don’t mix based on every researches done in this area. So I truly think it is time for Burnaby to start considering turning some of those car lanes into dedicated bus lane, bigger pedestrian, bike, plaza, whatever people-oriented things surrounding these urban centres. Lougheed Hwy is certainly not a highway once you get to around Holdom station from the east. Willingdon Ave north of Hwy 1 are now popping with more and more density. Quite frankly, Kingsway is kind of always uncomfortable to drive on for the majority of it and showcased often with accidents on Vancouver’s Worst Drivers. I think it is time to turn them into proper streets instead of their current “stroad” condition. Slow cars down, have dedicated bus lane and give more spaces to people. Make these official Burnaby town centres more walkable, bikeable and people-friendly.

100000% agree but it will never happen in Burnaby - cars are prioritised higher than people in this city.

It's been known that these areas are intended to be urban centres for decades yet virtually no accommodation has been made to make the neighbourhood liveable for pedestrians and cyclists. The accommodations that have been made are piecemeal and disconnected and only useful within the block or two that they exist in.

Vancouver is brave/bold/foolish enough to take 2 lanes out on Broadway - a street that's busier than Kingsway or Lougheed so that it's a great street. Burnaby should be able to do the same.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Should be possible to traffic-calm Willingdon... in about 15-ish years when the North Shore SkyTrain opens.

I think Willingdon only needs wider sidewalks with a buffer between them and the road. Basically what exists right in front of the BPL's central branch on the east side, but with a double-wide sidewalk. A separated bike lane would also be nice.

Between Grange and Deer Lake Pkwy the lots have massive front (or back? I can't really tell) yards that I wish the city could just appropriate 10 feet from.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Should be possible to traffic-calm Willingdon... in about 15-ish years when the North Shore SkyTrain opens.

Nah, Willingdon is the only good connection from Hwy 1 to Metrotown.
Narrowing Willingdon would be a disaster.

Willingdon only needs to be widened from Moscrop to Kingsway to make a 6-lane (2 lane HOV, 4 lane normal + 1 lane turning) viable. The space is there- they just need to shorten the front lawns of the SFHs on Willingdon.

Which is something TransLink never does with their R-Buses, to their detriment.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by ecbin

100000% agree but it will never happen in Burnaby - cars are prioritised higher than people in this city.

Did you miss when I posted a link to the Edmonds Town Centre Cycling Network?

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Willingdon only needs to be widened from Moscrop to Kingsway to make a 6-lane (2 lane HOV, 4 lane normal + 1 lane turning) viable. The space is there- they just need to shorten the front lawns of the SFHs on Willingdon.

THANK YOU. Nice to see some people still living in the real world where cars are and always will be the main transportation method.

I am not so sure about there being enough space to widen Willingdon, though, without legal battles. The fact that there aren't even left-turn lanes on this section goes to show how under-served car infrastructure in this city is. Meanwhile, just how many tens of millions of dollars the new Highway 1 overpass is going to be?

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by ecbin

Vancouver is brave/bold/foolish enough to take 2 lanes out on Broadway - a street that's busier than Kingsway or Lougheed so that it's a great street.

Nah, Broadway will have nothing on Kingsway being the true Great Street. 7 lanes of smoothly flowing traffic, surrounded on both sides with veeeery wide sidewalks with bike lane and restaurant patios, shadowed by a towering canyon of more than a dozen 50-70 storey skyscrapers. There is going to be nothing like it in Metro Vancouver and Broadway of tomorrow will pale in comparison.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Rather, Broadway will have as much foot traffic as the seawall during fireworks night, while Burnaby's Kingsway will continue to be a ghost town.

[Klazu]

Ghost town?? Kingsway is already busy with foot traffic especially on the western end and only going to get busier with more massive towers going up (and up they go in Burnaby!). In Burnaby people also live in those towers, whereas in Vancouver so many are just empty investment units. Metrotown actually has a really good foot traffic and is only going to get busier. Area around Skytrain station is starting to be "Downtown busy".

This is of course not to say that Broadway can't also be reasonably busy, but there is going to be a lot more people living in Metrotown vs. Broadway corridor. The former is also a regional destination thanks to the mega mall, whereas Broadway will be only frequented by locals.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Klazu

THANK YOU. Nice to see some people still living in the real world where cars are and always will be the main transportation method.

I am not so sure about there being enough space to widen Willingdon, though, without legal battles. The fact that there aren't even left-turn lanes on this section goes to show how under-served car infrastructure in this city is. Meanwhile, just how many tens of millions of dollars the new Highway 1 overpass is going to be?

On which section?

And yeah, they would need some land acquisition on the front yards of SFHs to allow the widening.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Ghost town?? Kingsway is already busy with foot traffic especially on the western end and only going to get busier with more massive towers going up (and up they go in Burnaby!). In Burnaby people also live in those towers, whereas in Vancouver so many are just empty investment units. Metrotown actually has a really good foot traffic and is only going to get busier. Area around Skytrain station is starting to be "Downtown busy".

This is of course not to say that Broadway can't also be reasonably busy, but there is going to be a lot more people living in Metrotown vs. Broadway corridor. The former is also a regional destination thanks to the mega mall, whereas Broadway will be only frequented by locals.

A quick walk around Coal Harbour is enough to prove that it takes a lot more than massive towers to make a lively community; last time I was at Kingsway and Willingdon, history seemed destined to repeat itself. If there's more occupancy and less empty units there than Vancouver, the sidewalks aren't demonstrating it when I'm around.

Broadway'll have five SkyTrain stations in the centre of the CoV, proximity to downtown (or rather it'll be a part of it), more zoned density overall, and a much more pedestrian-friendly space... whereas all of Central Burnaby's activity is currently getting sucked into Metrotown and Station Square and away from Kingsway, and the two six-lane stroads are killing walkability. It's definitely an unfair comparison, but not in the way you're thinking of it.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

A quick walk around Coal Harbour is enough to prove that it takes a lot more than massive towers to make a lively community; last time I was at Kingsway and Willingdon, history seemed destined to repeat itself. If there's more occupancy and less empty units there than Vancouver, the sidewalks aren't demonstrating it when I'm around.

Broadway'll have five SkyTrain stations in the centre of the CoV, proximity to downtown (or rather it'll be a part of it), more zoned density overall, and a much more pedestrian-friendly space... whereas all of Central Burnaby's activity is currently getting sucked into Metrotown and Station Square and away from Kingsway. It's definitely an unfair comparison, but not in the way you're thinking of it.

Kingsway's also on average a 5-10 min walk away from SkyTrain.

There's no easy way to access Kingsway from Edmonds, either, which means that the comparison between Kingsway and Broadway is a bit iffy.
It'd be as if they put SkyTrain on the False Creek South rail ROW instead of Broadway.

Vancouver does the same thing on the Joyce-Collingwood Plan (putting most development on the Expo rather than Kingsway) because Kingsway just isn't a good place for a 'high street' to begin with outside the areas it intersects with SkyTrain (which is Metrotown)

Actually, it's worse, since Joyce-Collingwood is also a hub station right next to Metrotown, intersects Kingsway nearby (technically at Boundary) and a natural future expansion of Metrotown once it fills out (it can't expand towards Royal Oak due to the protected industrial lands, and it can't expand north until we have a Willingdon SkyTrain)

[Migrant_Coconut]

10-15 minutes isn't a horrible walk; the real problem is that all the amenities so far are in the malls, and the rest are generally not worth looking for the (comparatively few) ways to cross a six-lane highway that makes Broadway look tame by comparison.

For their part, Vancouver's trying to densify Joyce's stretch of Kingsway and integrate it with the rest of the hub, but that's a different conversation.

Originally Posted by fredinno

Nah, Willingdon is the only good connection from Hwy 1 to Metrotown.
Narrowing Willingdon would be a disaster.

Willingdon only needs to be widened from Moscrop to Kingsway to make a 6-lane (2 lane HOV, 4 lane normal + 1 lane turning) viable. The space is there- they just need to shorten the front lawns of the SFHs on Willingdon.

Which is something TransLink never does with their R-Buses, to their detriment.

OP was about traffic-calming Willingdon after the SkyTrain opens (i.e. no more RapidBuses): drivers'd still have Grandview, Boundary and four lanes to get to Metrotown. Literally nobody is suggesting it go down to three or less.

[NetMapel]

I do not mean to just narrow Willingdon Ave or Lougheed Hwy the entire way. Rather, it should be considered for the areas around designated town centres. Pick appropriate roads surrounding the town centres and go for it. In fact, that should be the case around all designated town centres by the City of Burnaby. That idea is indeed to disincentivize some car traffic away from town centres, making it better for the people living there. The specific car traffic targeted to be disincentivized would be those pass through traffic that are just pass through these centres. Urban centres are places that you want people to go to, not through. We got back alleys, side parkings, parking lots, and more that interfere greatly with efficient car speed anyways and it will only get worse with more condo buildings popping up on Lougheed Hwy. That, to me, meets the definition of a stroad where it is not a road that allows for cars to actually drive fast with high efficiency and also not a street that is comfortable for people.

Given that Burnaby themselves designated those places as town centres. I am merely saying that fast cars and urban centres don’t mix. Despite many lanes, these roads aren’t truly doing their jobs of moving cars efficiently due to the “stroad” aspect of it in urban centres. Induced demands suggests that you make it easier for people travel without a car, then that’s what they’ll do. Around urban centres, you absolutely want to focus on making better land use value because we can’t afford to otherwise. You want people to be able to easily walk/bike to do daily chores like grocery, shopping, recreation, appointments… etc. So yeah, the goal should be to reduce through traffic and unnecessary car traffic in a town centre.

Also, those sidewalks on Willingdon Ave south of Deer Lake Parkway are atrocious. Through an email, Burnaby said that the city standard of side walk is 2.0m+. I don’t know if it is a newer standard or whatever, but those sidewalks are clearly not 2.0m+. Hopefully when they are ready to put in the BRT line on Willingdon Ave, they will take that moment to widen those sidewalks.

I see a lot of resemblance with this video:
• Video Link

Also for land use value, I would like to reference this video:
• Video Link

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by NetMapel

I do not mean to just narrow Willingdon Ave or Lougheed Hwy the entire way. Rather, it should be considered for the areas around designated town centres. Pick appropriate roads surrounding the town centres and go for it. In fact, that should be the case around all designated town centres by the City of Burnaby. That idea is indeed to disincentivize some car traffic away from town centres, making it better for the people living there. The specific car traffic targeted to be disincentivized would be those pass through traffic that are just pass through these centres. Urban centres are places that you want people to go to, not through. We got back alleys, side parkings, parking lots, and more that interfere greatly with efficient car speed anyways and it will only get worse with more condo buildings popping up on Lougheed Hwy. That, to me, meets the definition of a stroad where it is not a road that allows for cars to actually drive fast with high efficiency and also not a street that is comfortable for people.

Given that Burnaby themselves designated those places as town centres. I am merely saying that fast cars and urban centres don’t mix. Big roads aren’t truly doing their jobs of moving cars efficiently due to the “stroad” aspect of it in urban centres. Induced demands suggests that you make it easier for people travel without a car, then that’s what they’ll do. Around urban centres, you absolutely want to focus on making it better land use value. You want people to be able to easily walk/bike to do daily chores like grocery, shopping, recreation, appointments… etc. So yeah, the goal should be to reduce through traffic and unnecessary car traffic in a town centre.

Also, those sidewalks on Willingdon Ave south of Deer Lake Parkway is atrocious. Through an email, Burnaby said that the city standard of side walk is 2.0m+. I don’t know if it is a newer standard or whatever, but those sidewalks are clearly not 2.0m+. Hopefully when they are ready to put in the BRT line on Willingdon Ave, they will take that moment to extend those sidewalks.

I see a lot of resemblance with this video:
• Video Link

http://urbanshift.ca/projects/burnab...e-model-cont1/

The problem is that the most congestion occurs around the City Centers.
That includes congestion for buses.
Even bus lanes don't work well when the car lanes are completely full and the bus has to do a left turn.

Burnaby designated these areas as Town Centers back in the 60s and were based around having existing services and businesses, and being major hubs regardless of transit.

This meant putting them on the regional highway network, which means there was always going to be wide roads going through them.

Edmonds didn't have a regional highway going through its center- and probably ended up suffering from it, because it never had or has sufficient services or commercial activity without the existing network of businesses from its auto-oriented days.


I guess there's not any loud, dirty cars and trucks going through the center- but it's also kind of a 'condo ghetto' that's not much of a hub for anything.


Being easily accessible by car also often means it's easily accessible by buses.

[Migrant_Coconut]

On one hand, it's possible to have buses and no cars - Granville Mall, for example.

On the other hand, doing the same for Lougheed or Willingdon but only around Brentwood sounds like gridlock in the making (like the bridges), which can't be good for walkability either.

On the third hand, that crossing is definitely intimidating and killing walkability anyway...

[madog222]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Edmonds didn't have a regional highway going through its center- and probably ended up suffering from it, because it never had or has sufficient services or commercial activity without the existing network of businesses from its auto-oriented days.

Isn't the difference just that it never had a mall to anchor the town centre? The Trans Canada / Highway 1 passed though Edmonds along Kingsway just as it did through Metrotown.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by madog222

Isn't the difference just that it never had a mall to anchor the town centre? The Trans Canada / Highway 1 passed though Edmonds along Kingsway just as it did through Metrotown.

There's technically Highgate Village, but even that's 14 min away from Edmonds- so it's not even really within walking distance.

Also, Highgate's more of a strip mall that anything.

Hwy 1A (and thus, the older commercial strip is also 12 minutes (minimum) from Edmonds.


Edmonds Station was originally located at Rumble Street, but the cost-cutting on the Expo Line moved the station south to avoid straightening out the track line for a station (especially since the track is on sloped terrain there).

1A is 5-6 min from Rumble Street, similar to Metrotown Station.

I would argue that would still be a weak place to put a town center (it's very sloped and is probably too close to Metrotown, putting the two in direct competition), but it would at least have a fighting chance.