Banning drive-thrus

[raisethehammer]

yea, I'm not too sure what the deal is here. We're having a perfectly good discussion until someone (in this case, fastcars) comes on and goes off on some rant directed at others on the forum.
Guys, this is a place to share ideas and chat about our city. It's not an interview with Trump on the apprentice. Chill.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

yea, I'm not too sure what the deal is here. We're having a perfectly good discussion until someone (in this case, fastcars) comes on and goes off on some rant directed at others on the forum.
Guys, this is a place to share ideas and chat about our city. It's not an interview with Trump on the apprentice. Chill.

"Perfectly good discussion"?? Give me a break. Let's check your first post in this thread:

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

let's not waste our time. this is Hamilton. The car is king.

I agree with an urban ban on drivethrus.
It's kind of tough to ban them in wastelands like meadowlands. if we're going to let crap like that get built, then drive-thrus will be natural in those areas since the entire thing is dedicated to cars.

and I wouldn't worry about places adding more surface parking if they lose their drivethrus.
I've never seen a fast food place with a full lot. ever.

How much room for discussion is there here? If I were to tell you that the Meadowlands is not a "wasteland" and that I enjoy shopping there, you would summarily dismiss me in a nanosecond. If I were to tell you that I find drive-thrus to be convenient rather than "crap", you would not give my statement any consideration. If I were to tell you that I have seen fast food places with full parking lots, you would refuse to believe it.

Almost any time that I have brought up an opposing perspective (whether or not it was one with which I agreed), you have either refused to acknowledge a single point or you have ignored it entirely.

Not everyone wants to live on the 20th floor of an apartment building and take light transit to independent mom-and-pop shops that have made a vow to never do more than break even.

[raisethehammer]

bro, no offense, but I don't reply to you because you're a waste of time, not because I disagree with your views. What am I supposed to say to "you suck"?? You're above post had more decent points in it than your last 3 months of posting. try making that a habit instead of the Dr Phil stuff. Unfortunately I don't get to reply to your above points since you already did it for me.

Fastcars and I don't seem to agree on much, but we continue to chat and reply to one another. It's called human interaction. Give it a try sometime without getting all anal.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

bro, no offense, but I don't reply to you because you're a waste of time, not because I disagree with your views. What am I supposed to say to "you suck"?? You're above post had more decent points in it than your last 3 months of posting. try making that a habit instead of the Dr Phil stuff. Unfortunately I don't get to reply to your above points since you already did it for me.

Fastcars and I don't seem to agree on much, but we continue to chat and reply to one another. It's called human interaction. Give it a try sometime without getting all anal.

"No offense", ... but ... "you're a waste of time"?

Take offense or not, but I think my six year old knows more about reasoning, rational thought, and openmindedness than you do.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by BCTed

"No offense", ... but ... "you're a waste of time"?

Take offense or not, but I think my six year old knows more about reasoning, rational thought, and openmindedness than you do.

oh brother...last reply to this 6-year old level conversation.
As I think I made clear, I was referring to your posts and the reason I don't reply is because I'd simply be wasting my time.
Talk about snazzy 'editing' jobs. you take the beginning and end of a sentence, slice them together and make the quote sound personal.
Bro, I don't even know you. You might be a great guy. All I know, is I don't reply to most of what you say on here because I think you're just trying to waste my time.
Like this!

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

oh brother...last reply to this 6-year old level conversation.
As I think I made clear, I was referring to your posts and the reason I don't reply is because I'd simply be wasting my time.
Talk about snazzy 'editing' jobs. you take the beginning and end of a sentence, slice them together and make the quote sound personal.
Bro, I don't even know you. You might be a great guy. All I know, is I don't reply to most of what you say on here because I think you're just trying to waste my time.
Like this!

No snazzy editing job. "bro, no offense, but I don't reply to you because you're a waste of time..." is just as insulting. I took out five words from the beginning of a sentence and made that clear with ellipses. No big slicing or dicing.

Anyway, maybe I will just let you carry on with your rants and diatribes on the state of affairs completely unopposed. You will have a much better time solving the world's problems without people like me to challenge any of your comments or claims.

[SteelTown]

Chill guys chill!

Have a timbit


Don't worry I got half of the timbits from the drive thru and the other half from walking inside. Chill!

[fastcarsfreedom]

the dude--you can barely stand to visit because I've been posting? Why is that? I am actually a long way from self-righteous and a long way from perfect--I am a man of conviction and opinions, and I thrive on sharing them, on reading the opinions of others, and in the end, learning and growing from the discourse--that's what my participation here is about. I'm at a loss to understand why you're getting personal--it's something I strive to avoid here, honestly. Do we agree on most issues--frankly we don't--and that's fine. When you step up to bat with your opinion on something--I'm going to be there to debate it--that's what this is about--and I expect nothing less of you--challenge me, correct me--do whatever you'd like. If however, you just don't want to be disagreed with--I can't help you on that one--when I don't want to be challenged, I find the mirror makes an excellent audience. If a dissenting opinion "derails" discussion--I'm guessing it wouldn't be much of a discussion at all.

With all that being said--it seems you're calling me out on being self-righteous...fine...if you can find an instance where I was self-righteous, please feel free to share it--it's welcome in the Forum, or your welcome to share it privately so as not to derail any other conversation. I have a fair bit of info and knowledge to share here--some of it is "untainted" by my politics--I invite you to re-read some of my posts--you may find some interesting bits in there between my "tirades".

As for you being a snob, it's cool you admit it. I'll leave it at that.

[raisethehammer]

haha...classic!
I'm chilled. No worries.

[matt602]

Man those look good...

[fastcarsfreedom]

The timbits do look good--though I will say the switch to "par-baked" goods made and frozen in Brantford and then shipped out to the stores has lessened their appeal. If you want to read a tirade about that, pick up Ron Joyce's autobiography--he really takes Tim Hortons corporate to task for that decision (and regrets selling the business, by the way).

Coalmine--I asked you to find a time when I've been self-righteous or pious--and you didn't. Period. Saying I'm self-righteous for not supporting a ban on Drive-Thrus is a judgement call on your part, which is cool, but doesn't exemplify my supposed piety in this Forum. For the record, I take very little here personally--for instance--I would consider myself neither fat nor lazy, yet I find blanket statements about everyone being fat and lazy to be childish and extraordinarily pious. That's not about things being personal--that's a distaste for empty elitism which does absolutely nothing to advance discussion, understanding or argument.

"Do I need to look up studies to convince you of this? If so, you might as well stop reading now"

For instance, would it have been possible for you to simply state the facts as you see them and present your argument without being condescending? You assume I'm trying to derail the discussion, but I'm not--I'm trying to illustrate that the simple addition of a sentence really makes me want to not care about what you think.

That being said, you make valid points--I'm not arguing that idling cars don't pollute, they do--I'm expressing an opposition to banning Drive-Thrus. There are definitely neighborhoods where Drive Thrus simply don't fit in--I agree with that--and if municipalities want to go about planning initiatives to prevent drive-thrus from popping up in Hess Village for instance--that's fine. The truth is, I'm a daily Tim Hortons customer--and I rarely use the Drive Thru--so if you're assuming this is somehow self-serving--it's really not. At busy times I find it's simply much quicker to go inside and order--for me it's a matter of efficiency to not be sitting in my truck for no reason waiting at the drive thru, when I could be happily down the road, coffee in hand.

Also, if you want your argument to hold some weight, stop using Drive Thrus, immediately.

[coalminecanary]

First, regarding the timbits: that's way more than 20 and a hell of a "snack"!

Second, fastcars I'm just saying that you take too much offense and read too much into a lot of things. For instance, the fat lazy comment was, when I read it, a funny joke. A satire on the bottom line of drive throughs - the fact that they are 100% about convenience. And additionally, i interpret the comment to be a blanket statement that covers everyone, including the original poster himself. That's what makes it funny. It would be self righteous if his comment were more like "good thing everyone else in this country is a fat slob except me".

Additionally, you didn't ask ME to find a time you were self righteous since that request happened way before I even partook in this discussion. I never specifically accused you of self righteousness. This is a perfect example of you taking things too personally. I do not think that you, personally are self righteous so I'm not interested in trying to find an example of it.

My comments about self righteousness aspects of defending drive throughs are just general observations. My comments about looking up studies are done in a joking manner because earlier in the thread someone brought up a question about looking up studies. They aren't meant to be condescending. This is why I think you are taking things too seriously :-p

And finally, I don't have to stop using drive throughs until I start actually chastising people for their use of them. I did not tell anyone they should stop using them. I only support a law that prevents them from existing, forcing us all to not use them for the good of the community. If I were a smoker, and I supported a ban on cigarettes forcing me and all others to stop smoking, it's not hypocritical. If I was a smoker and I told other smokers to stop while I continued, then it would be....

In conclusion, I hope that drive throughs are banned :-)

[raisethehammer]

yea, I agree with coalmine here. just because I oppose new highway construction doesn't mean that I'm never allowed to drive on a highway again.
Our society has been constructed in such a way that gives people no option.
I'd never own a car again if we spent a fraction of the time and money on improving transit in Hamilton and the GTA. It takes hours to get anywhere in our so-called 'heartland of Canada'.
We're embarassing.
I, too, rarely use drivethrus...yet, I've seen some bank machines that are only drive-thru. not even an option to get out, although I still do if there's no lineup. lol.

[realcity]

Ten Reasons why I hate Tim Hortons

1. The standard brown box format is plopped down with no regard for the surrounding neighbourhood. eg. Concession street. Starbucks and Second Cup try to make their buildings fit into the street. eg Second Cup Westdale
2. Drive thrus are more important than people who park and/or walk to the store.
3. No debit machines
4. Caffeine and sugar is not healthy
5. Catering to vehicles wraps the buildings in a constant queue of idling cars, pedestrian have to pass through these sometimes moving cars to enter and exit.
6. Drive thrus cause unnecessary pollution. They really aren't needed. Their existance demands use.
7. started in Hamilton but head office is in Oakville
8. creates hazards on the roads, drivers loose their minds deciding if they want a coffee and can't pass a Tims without slowing down and making erratic turns.
9. dirty washrooms, generic interior
10. rude staff

[raisethehammer]

you pretty much just described every major fast-food and coffee chain in North America...

[fastcarsfreedom]

realcity--that post is just plain bizarre.

Do you not think the King & Hughson Tim Horton's blends just as nicely as the Second Cup in Westdale?

Second Cup, Williams and Starbucks are all busy building suburban stores with Drive Thrus, mostly predicated on the success Tim Hortons has had with the format.

Debit machines cause transaction times to double--and you're worried about the lineups now? The card they've recently launched takes the place of debit.

Also, if you were to sit down and read some corporate history you would understand that Oakville was chosen because it was midway between the homes of Ron Joyce (Burlington) and Tim Horton (Don Mills).

Dirty washrooms and rude staff are in issue the local franchise operator ought to deal with--again, if you hate the place so much, why are you in there long enough to notice?

[realcity]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

realcity--that post is just plain bizarre.

Do you not think the King & Hughson Tim Horton's blends just as nicely as the Second Cup in Westdale?

Second Cup, Williams and Starbucks are all busy building suburban stores with Drive Thrus, mostly predicated on the success Tim Hortons has had with the format.

Debit machines cause transaction times to double--and you're worried about the lineups now? The card they've recently launched takes the place of debit.

Also, if you were to sit down and read some corporate history you would understand that Oakville was chosen because it was midway between the homes of Ron Joyce (Burlington) and Tim Horton (Don Mills).

Dirty washrooms and rude staff are in issue the local franchise operator ought to deal with--again, if you hate the place so much, why are you in there long enough to notice?

One or two examples of a blended-in Tim Hortons does not qualify the zillion other generic brown boxes. EXAMPLE: CONCESSION STREET

I didn't say Starbucks didn't do the same, but they do make better attempts. In fact, I know that Westcliff Mall (Upper Paradise and Mohawk) was trying to get a Tim Hortons and when they determined that a drive thru wasn't possible they abandoned the location. This location happens to be probably the biggest area void of any Tims and they don't care. No drive thru, No store. And they are no fans of malls, they want a pad site for their brown shitbox.

Debit machines double transaction times? I assume you have the research to verify that. Digging around for pennies takes time too. The truth is Moneris charges per transaction, Tims makes a zillion $2 transactions a day, they don't want to pay the fees and will hold out for as long as possible. McDonalds was in a similar position and boycotted Interac for the longest time. Today the transaction times at a McDonalds are similar to pre-interac days.

Who cares if Oakville is halfway? It still doesn't change the fact they have no office space at all in Hamilton.

[DC83]

I believe any Tim's locations that has a unique look were put into an already existing building: Right House, Village Green Ctr in Stoney Creek Village, the one in Ancaster Village, etc.
Every other location is the same piece of crap: prime example, Tim Horton's #1 (Ottawa & Dunsmuire).

I agree w/ every point RealCity makes... I think you're just on this forum for the sake of arguing every point anyone ever makes on here, fastcars.

Realcity: I think Ron Joyce is actually feelin the same way you are.
I believe he said he now regrets selling the Tim's chain?
I, for one, lost all respect for the company when they started to sell Fajitas!?!? WTF!?!?

[fastcarsfreedom]

Wrong again DC83. If you took the time to read my posts THROUGHOUT the Forum, you would see that I am only here to express my opinion--sure there are times that I disagree--often it seems I am the only dissenter. If I see a post I disagree with--you can be darn sure I'm going to say my piece. Your desire to make me and my opinions go away speaks volumes about the strength and validity of the arguments you make. I suppose it's unfortunate for you when someone comes along with differing opinions and interupts you while you're busy patting each other on the back.

The Second Cup in Westdale--which I think is in a great spot--went into an existing building--in fact, it was a hardware store when I was a lad. How does that differ from King & Hughson?

As for Joyce--he expresses regret about selling the chain in his autobiography--which is an excellent read. His concerns mostly surround PR issues and the decision to go with par-baked goods across the board in lieu of keeping at least some products baked in-store. He has some fairly unsavory things to say about Wendys as an organization and about the late Dave Thomas who he paints as an oddly insecure and passive agressive man. Nonetheless, drive-thrus and standardized store designs were all established under Joyce--in fact, the stores have had various standardized designs since the 1970s.

[raisethehammer]

speaking of the Second Cup in Westdale, I've only been back once since the reno. Brutal. Feels like Upper James now.
My wife and I used to go there regularly...they botched up the interior with that corporate, shiny, trashy reno and we've stopped going now. Don't miss it at all, as we've found other great cafes in town with a comfy vibe to chill in.