CHICAGO | Politics and Current Events

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Rocket49

I doubt anyone, except perhaps a racist who believes that minorities are naturally violent and lazy, thinks there is one cause for the dire situation in parts of the South Side and West Side.
But I think it's fair to say a lack of investment in:
1) schools
2) subsidized housing
3) police
are some of the things that have caused those neighborhoods to be barely habitable.

Nonsense.

Blaming outside factors is the definition of the problem

[UPChicago]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Nonsense.

Blaming outside factors is the definition of the problem

Trying to fix a symptom without diagnosing the disease is the problem. Bad policies caused this problem of segregated communities and persistent proverty which leads to violence, end of story. Otherwise you're basically saying these people just are born with a depravity within them, which is.....well you know. Some of you need to sociology classes. Some of the comments here are narrow minded and just focus on the violence but not the contributing factors. It you don't address the factor that lead to violence you will not solve violence. You can lock up as many people as you want and it one solve the problem.

[chicubs111]

Originally Posted by Rocket49

I doubt anyone, except perhaps a racist who believes that minorities are naturally violent and lazy, thinks there is one cause for the dire situation in parts of the South Side and West Side.
But I think it's fair to say a lack of investment in:
1) schools
2) subsidized housing
3) police
are some of the things that have caused those neighborhoods to be barely habitable.

No I don't think minorities are naturally violent or lazy...But i do feel (with regards to Chicago) you will find more violence and lack of family structure, moral structure, and educated individuals in predominate minority areas in the city. With that said it all comes down in the end to the individual and there family structure that lays the ground work for there future...you either stay in school and get your education or drop out and join a gang where you will rob, kill and continue the cycle. This is a black community issue that can only be solved by the black community themselves. They have to wake up and see the light.

[moorhosj]

Originally Posted by chicubs111

With that said it all comes down in the end to the individual and there family structure that lays the ground work for there future...you either stay in school and get your education or drop out and join a gang where you will rob, kill and continue the cycle. This is a black community issue that can only be solved by the black community themselves. They have to wake up and see the light.

This line of thinking essentially hand-waves the very institutional factors others in this thread have brought up. Things like redlining and the GI Bill are very real historical factors. Current issues like lead pipes and the war on drugs make it much more complex than "it comes down to the individual". These are real factors that are often out of the hands of the individual.

[urbanpln]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

^^^ Government malinvestment has almost nothing to do with the creation of slums. If anything, government investment has intensified the plight of minorities as it funded the widescale destruction of existing affordable housing and communities and the construction of neighborhood ruining expressways, projects, and general slum clearance projects (IMD, etc). Do you think that "investment" did anyone any favors? Absolutely not.

Slums occur naturally on their own, they do not appear because governments "fail to invest". What does that even mean? Did the government stop renovating the privately owned buildings and cause them to fall into disrepair? Did they close all the schools, police departments, and fire departments? Did they stop keeping local businesses up and running? No.

What actually occurred was a million poor Southern blacks who had been marginalized and abused for generations during and after slavery moved to a Northern industrial city in search of an opportunity to lift themselves up. That created the first round of slums as areas like Bronzeville which had fallen into disrepair were rapidly populated and then overpopulated by migrants. Then globalization occurred and the great Northern workshops were closed slamming the door shut on this entire population. This caused already low income communities to collapse as their entire essence and reason for being blew out the window. This had nothing to do with "government investment", it was an absolutely organic economic and sociological phenomenon.

Is there things the government could do to attempt to mitigate the underlying trends that caused there phenomena? Sure? But a "lack of investment" causing this? Please...

You have no freakin idea what you are talking about. Read Arnold Hirsch's "The Making of the Second Ghetto". Hirsch argues that in the post-depression years Chicago was a "pioneer in developing concepts and devices" for housing segregation. It is well documented that Chicago's racial housing patterns were created by design, and now we have a serious problem because of it. The city is losing African Americans that it should be keeping. The ones that are leaving are the most productive. Those who are staying can't afford to leave, and in some cases are the trouble makers.

I'm done with this site and refuse to get into a discussion with people who only see things based upon their life experiences. I hope the moderators edit this discussion

[TimeAgain]

Originally Posted by urbanpln

You have no freakin idea what you are talking about. Read Arnold Hirsch's "The Making of the Second Ghetto". Hirsch argues that in the post-depression years Chicago was a "pioneer in developing concepts and devices" for housing segregation. It is well documented that Chicago's racial housing patterns were created by design, and now we have a serious problem because of it. The city is losing African Americans that it should be keeping. The ones that are leaving are the most productive. Those who are staying can't afford to leave, and in some cases are the trouble makers.

I'm done with this site and refuse to get into a discussion with people who only see things based upon their life experiences. I hope the moderators edit this discussion

I get the sense that those that stay behind and can't afford to leave will eventually be moved out to due to not owning property, property taxes, foreclosure, etc. It's a terrible way of gentrifying, but I get the sense that in 10-20 years, it'll happen. Chicago is such a unique example in this country. Chicago is going through big property development but is either losing population or staying stagnant. However, that's due to an influx of high income individuals while losing more blue collar workers.

[Via Chicago]

Originally Posted by urbanpln

You have no freakin idea what you are talking about. Read Arnold Hirsch's "The Making of the Second Ghetto". Hirsch argues that in the post-depression years Chicago was a "pioneer in developing concepts and devices" for housing segregation. It is well documented that Chicago's racial housing patterns were created by design, and now we have a serious problem because of it. The city is losing African Americans that it should be keeping. The ones that are leaving are the most productive. Those who are staying can't afford to leave, and in some cases are the trouble makers.

I'm done with this site and refuse to get into a discussion with people who only see things based upon their life experiences. I hope the moderators edit this discussion

another good read about the history of institutional segregation in Chicago:

https://www.amazon.com/South-Side-Po.../dp/1137280158

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

Slums occur naturally on their own, they do not appear because governments "fail to invest". What does that even mean? Did the government stop renovating the privately owned buildings and cause them to fall into disrepair? Did they close all the schools, police departments, and fire departments? Did they stop keeping local businesses up and running? No.

its not so much a matter of investment (although even today one can drive through certain neighborhoods and see the deferred maintenance and understand we live in an unequal city where services are not shared the same with all citizens. when one drives through Lawndale and sees burned out street lights and roads that look like lunar landscapes...yes, the government has failed to uphold its end of the bargain for these citizens). its a matter of the city literally held racist housing policies and wouldnt allow blacks to buy into white communities. redlining anyone? blockbusting? slums occurred because a segment of our population was ostracized from living in other communities, were denied the same opportunities available to others, and had no other options. the impact continues to today where homes in black neighborhoods appreciate at far lower rates than those in white areas, destroying generational wealth in these communities (home ownership is the the most significant form of equity for most of the working class) and locking them out of the housing recovery. to suggest that 200 years of inequality dont have an impact on the way that cities form or the lives people are forced into is a complete garbage opinion. to say nothing of other government factors like "tough on crime" mass incarceration, failed war on drugs, etc. Active denial of these facts is in effect a perpetuation of the problem. and now we have a president who he himself was sued by the federal government for racial housing discrimination.

[Vlajos]

Good luck getting more Section 8 vouchers out of Trump.

[the urban politician]

I will continue to say that no city is transforming (in the US) as much as Chicago is.

Most of it is good news, but the bad news (gang wars and murders) is really, really bad

[TimeAgain]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

I will continue to say that no city is transforming (in the US) as much as Chicago is.

Most of it is good news, but the bad news (gang wars and murders) is really, really bad

Mind expressing how you think the city is changing?

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by TimeAgain

Mind expressing how you think the city is changing?

As we have already seen data for, parts of the city near the core are growing faster than any other US city. The amount of development is staggering, and large swaths that were just parking hellholes are turning into whole neighborhoods. A 24/7 city is emerging before our eyes, with affluence rising.

And in the very same city, gang wars and killings are leading to depopulation in several large areas.

I can't think of another American city seeing such change

[pilsenarch]

chicubs111, I think you just bolstered emathias' point... how would you suggest we force poor African American families to suddenly exhibit a "strong family and moral structure"?

[denizen467]

^ Don't be so dramatic. If the conversation organically envelops a related and relevant subject, that's a natural thing. Why shut all these people down when they are willing to go out on a limb and put out their thinking. Plus, it's a weekend early in the year and development news might be a little slow right now, and on the flip side we're right at the changeover of a political administration. That said, at some point soon a dedicated thread would be a good idea, although I'll tell you only a handful of diehards would end up continuing over there. Though I would add the forumer who initiated this talk is an outsider with a history of provoking controversial social discussions; I think the local regulars generally exercise more self-regulation and focus on their own.

[The Lurker]

Originally Posted by denizen467

^ Why shut all these people down when they are willing to go out on a limb and put out their thinking.

Thats not the idea. The topic is becoming politically and racially charged. While there are some valid points and opinions being expressed (many that i would like to respond to as well) this discussion could run on for many pages, effectively shutting out relevant photos and updates from other forumers. Thats all.

[chicubs111]

Originally Posted by pilsenarch

chicubs111, I think you just bolstered emathias' point... how would you suggest we force poor African American families to suddenly exhibit a "strong family and moral structure"?

You cant force anything..Im not here to say there is a real world "magic bullet" that suddenly will solve everything ....that what my original point a few threads back.. that this only this can be solved within in the black community themselves and will take many many decades before you see positive results... The mentality is already firmly entrenched so unfortunately the immediate future doesn't looks so bright...
Thats how I will end this topic in this forum since i dont want to get the moderators upset and take the focus away from General deveolpment .

[the urban politician]

"If you think I gave you power, then you've got nothing!

Power ain't something you're given.

Real power....is something you take!"

-----Jock Ewing. Dallas

Point being, the world doesn't become a better place by merely walking around and whining about how unfair everything is like a crybaby. To achieve your goals you have to play the game and beat them at it. Sympathy will only advance your cause as far as the sympathizer's wish it, and when their pleasure of feeling sorry for their poor little pet dog wears out you find you have advanced very little from where you've started, with your station still being leagues below those whom you are trying to achieve equality with.

[Mr Roboto]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

"If you think I gave you power, then you've got nothing!

Power ain't something you're given.

Real power....is something you take!"

-----Jock Ewing. Dallas

Point being, the world doesn't become a better place by merely walking around and whining about how unfair everything is like a crybaby. To achieve your goals you have to play the game and beat them at it. Sympathy will only advance your cause as far as the sympathizer's wish it, and when their pleasure of feeling sorry for their poor little pet dog wears out you find you have advanced very little from where you've started, with your station still being leagues below those whom you are trying to achieve equality with.

Whining like a crybaby isnt what the concern is, the concern is giving people merely an opportunity to better their lives someway. Criminals have much the same mentality as your quote above btw. not very productive either way.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

to achieve your goals you have to play the game and beat them at it.

what if the game is rigged against you?

what if you weren't taught the skills to play the game?

what if none of your role models had ever played the game before?

what if mistakes made in youth precluded you from ever being allowed to play the game for the rest of your life?


you can't just throw someone who doesn't know how to swim into a swimming pool and say "now go win a gold medal, that's the game".

[Mr Roboto]

Families where the father is locked up or not present will automatically have children (particularly young males) much more prone to violent behavior, poor performance in school, and ultimately less chance of success. I think this weighs in the heaviest on these areas.

The presence of male role models, or lack thereof, and a well-structured family are ultimately the most important factor in the success of people coming out of these areas. The prevalence of father-less families is absolutely debilitating to any young children. The numbers back that up.

Perhaps that is where obama relates to some these young kids on the south side, he didn't have his father, but he had a very driven mother who stressed education and fairly stable grandparent situation and grew up in more stable areas. Even still, obama is remarkably exceptional.

My own personal situation: I grew up lower-middle class and without a father but in a fairly stable area, and a mother with a solid educational background. I also was easily influenced by peers, from similar broken family situations, and close to going down toward a path of negativity and recklessness. Eventually i was influenced to return to a more stable path of education and becoming a productive member of society, but it wasnt easy. Suffice to say, as a young man, a father would have played a strong role in keeping me straight as a youth.

[the urban politician]

^ It's a fair issue to bring up. Problem is, far too many people don't even try