CHICAGO | St. Regis Chicago (Vista) | 1,191 FT | 101 FLOORS

[HiRiser]

People, I revisit this page to hopefully see if the elephant in the room has been addressed. It hasn’t. Where is the curtainwall?

[LouisVanDerWright]

Originally Posted by HiRiser

People, I revisit this page to hopefully see if the elephant in the room has been addressed. It hasn’t. Where is the curtainwall?

They are probably working out some kinks, but they have been making steady progress capping the floorplates, if you look at the most recent pictures you will see at least 10-15 floors have been capped. I have a feeling that what we are really seeing is a staging lag where they want to let the time consuming process of building what is essentially hundreds of tiny little roofs where each floorplate moves outwards get well ahead of the main panes being placed.

Also, just look at OGP where they also waited to start installing the window wall until the building was almost halfway up. I don't think it is at all uncommon for larger buildings to start the glass later in the project because once they start installing it, it usually catches up with the concrete work very quickly. They can even do what they did at OGP and start one crew at the base and another crew halfway up. You almost wonder if that's not more efficient in some way to get the window contractor in there all at once and let them bang in out in a couple of months, catching quickly up to the superstructure, than it is to have them there for a year or more creeping along behind crews that work at a much slower pace. I know this is true for most subs on my much smaller projects, they would rather the project be ready for them to just show up and bang it out as quickly as they can than to have to wait for other trades and come back to finish in increments.

[HiRiser]

[QUOTE=LouisVanDerWright;8209087]They are probably working out some kinks, but they have been making steady progress capping the floorplates, if you look at the most recent pictures you will see at least 10-15 floors have been capped. I have a feeling that what we are really seeing is a staging lag where they want to let the time consuming process of building what is essentially hundreds of tiny little roofs where each floorplate moves outwards get well ahead of the main panes being placed.

Thanks for the reply but whilst installing the slab-edge covers is progressing this is not really doing justice to the overall facade progress. In my experience and opinion this quite alarming delay in the facade would have gone legal by now. Hoping whoever is involved gets across the line.

[Bombardier]

^That is not correct for either OGP or Vista in terms of glass. Other small finish trades maybe, but not having the glass follow behind the structure is a major cycle and sequencing screw up on both projects. On OGP, I understand it was due to a facade consultant moving the bar multiple times which ultimately requires the replacement of the facade contractor. If you recall, OGP actually had very expensive temporary walls installed to keep the construction moving. The delay in getting the glass on the building will now compress all other trade work as they could not finish in sequence while they were waiting for the glass to be fabricated.

At Vista, the glass contractor has still not passed crucial performance mockups. Even the small bit of glass that was installed at the shear walls has stopped progressing. This is not intentional and indicates a major blunder somewhere along the line in either design or misrepresentation of the performance the glass system could achieve. Even working multiple crews when the performance issue is ultimately resolved, I don’t see them making up the amount of time lost due to these issues. It will be interesting to see how it plays out and how much of a delay in final turnover the lack of glass will cause the project.

[LouisVanDerWright]

^^^ Are you sure about that or are you speculating. Because the glass install along the floorplate edges has continued pretty much unabated since they started. Perhaps there is a delay in the main panes, but it would seem odd that only the main panes are failing and the rest of the system (i.e. the floorplate caps) has passed just fine and is progressing.

Also, I wouldn't call those temporary walls at OGP "very expensive", it's less than $20/sheet for that fiberglass board and metal studs are dirt cheap, that wall maybe cost them $20 a linear foot to put up, sure that might add up to tens or twenty thousand dollars over several floors, but that's hardly what one would call "very expensive" on a multi hundred million dollar project. I'd be very curious to find out exactly what happened there. Also it's total bunk to claim the curtain wall will "compress all other trade work" because literally none of the trades would be impacted until you get to finishing type work like drywall which ain't gonna happen until many months after the concrete on any given floor is poured. In what world is the plumber, carpenter, or electrician slowed down because the windows aren't in? The main problem is going to be for the carpenter where any walls meet the windowwall, which is an issue, but not a huge issue as they have to come back through after all the other trades anyhow to tighten up and replace any studs that get mangled by HVAC, Plumbing, or Eletrical runs.

[pilsenarch]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

^^^ Are you sure about that or are you speculating. Because the glass install along the floorplate edges has continued pretty much unabated since they started. Perhaps there is a delay in the main panes, but it would seem odd that only the main panes are failing and the rest of the system (i.e. the floorplate caps) has passed just fine and is progressing.

You are correct that the spandrel panels are not failing the tests, but the main windows are, repeatedly (!).

For clarification, this is not a curtain wall, but a cheap window system. The same window manufacturer that was used on another Magellan project, Exhibit over on LaSalle...

The glass, and the glass manufacturer is not the problem either.

The problem is with the window frames. The manufacturer of the windows has been forced to design and develop new dies to manufacture a new window system with new extrusions....

Who'd ever thought you would have a problem using a cheap existing window system on a super tall with an uniquely convoluted envelope...

[PittsburghPA]

Originally Posted by pilsenarch

You are correct that the spandrel panels are not failing the tests, but the main windows are, repeatedly (!).

For clarification, this is not a curtain wall, but a cheap window system. The same window manufacturer that was used on another Magellan project, Exhibit over on LaSalle...

The glass, and the glass manufacturer is not the problem either.

The problem is with the window frames. The manufacturer of the windows has been forced to design and develop new dies to manufacture a new window system with new extrusions....

Who'd ever thought you would have a problem using a cheap existing window system on a super tall with an uniquely convoluted envelope...

I have also heard this from a friend in the curtain wall industry. The entire project finish date will most likely be delayed. It is indeed alarming.

On another note, I've always looked at how NYC projects are almost always curtain wall and Chicago projects are almost always window wall. Is that just due to higher profile buildings/more money to be spent? I didn't think it could get much higher profile than Vista. If done right this building can be world class.

[SolarWind]

June 4, 2018

[Bombardier]

Originally Posted by PittsburghPA

On another note, I've always looked at how NYC projects are almost always curtain wall and Chicago projects are almost always window wall. Is that just due to higher profile buildings/more money to be spent? I didn't think it could get much higher profile than Vista. If done right this building can be world class.

Yes, many more NYC high rises use curtain wall. There are a few factors I think... the rent and sale prices are much higher in a NYC. At 432 Park, the sale price of the very top end penthouses are $10k/SF versus maybe $2k/SF at No 9 Walton (guessing on this one as I don't recall the cost/SF on KG's penthouse). This allows a developer to pay more for their facade and finishes in NYC than they can in Chicago and still make a good return.

Also, a lot of NYC buildings are taller. Window wall has traditionally been used on shorter high rises, call it 700' - 800' or less generally. When you get above those heights you typically want a higher performing curtainwall system.

Chicago also is fortunate to be home to very competitive window wall contractors. Because of the amount of competition here, the cost of window wall is lower than most other places across the US including some non-union areas in the south. Some of the Chicago players travel for higher margins elsewhere because there is less competition, but here at home the window wall product is very cost effective which is also why we see so much of it here.

[HiRiser]

Originally Posted by PittsburghPA

I have also heard this from a friend in the curtain wall industry. The entire project finish date will most likely be delayed. It is indeed alarming.

On another note, I've always looked at how NYC projects are almost always curtain wall and Chicago projects are almost always window wall. Is that just due to higher profile buildings/more money to be spent? I didn't think it could get much higher profile than Vista. If done right this building can be world class.

Yep, Chicago is for sure a boom town right now but they do go a lot for the window wall facade rather than curtainwall. I hear the rates are ridiculously low and most top tier curtainwallers steer clear.

[donnie]

Originally Posted by HiRiser

Yep, Chicago is for sure a boom town right now but they do go a lot for the window wall facade rather than curtainwall. I hear the rates are ridiculously low and most top tier curtainwallers steer clear.

They both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Found this for you.._hope it helps
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=143090

[sox102]

Originally Posted by pilsenarch

You are correct that the spandrel panels are not failing the tests, but the main windows are, repeatedly (!).

For clarification, this is not a curtain wall, but a cheap window system. The same window manufacturer that was used on another Magellan project, Exhibit over on LaSalle...

The glass, and the glass manufacturer is not the problem either.

The problem is with the window frames. The manufacturer of the windows has been forced to design and develop new dies to manufacture a new window system with new extrusions....

Who'd ever thought you would have a problem using a cheap existing window system on a super tall with an uniquely convoluted envelope...

Thanks McHugh.

[Bombardier]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

Also, I wouldn't call those temporary walls at OGP "very expensive", it's less than $20/sheet for that fiberglass board and metal studs are dirt cheap, that wall maybe cost them $20 a linear foot to put up, sure that might add up to tens or twenty thousand dollars over several floors, but that's hardly what one would call "very expensive" on a multi hundred million dollar project. I'd be very curious to find out exactly what happened there. Also it's total bunk to claim the curtain wall will "compress all other trade work" because literally none of the trades would be impacted until you get to finishing type work like drywall which ain't gonna happen until many months after the concrete on any given floor is poured. In what world is the plumber, carpenter, or electrician slowed down because the windows aren't in? The main problem is going to be for the carpenter where any walls meet the windowwall, which is an issue, but not a huge issue as they have to come back through after all the other trades anyhow to tighten up and replace any studs that get mangled by HVAC, Plumbing, or Eletrical runs.

$20/LF is not even close to install and remove the temporary walls with union labor. I don't disagree that the overall cost is not a huge value is the scheme of the project, but no one wants to throw money out the window for temporary conditions that don't add value.

It is not at all a bunk claim that the other trades have to compress, I've spoken to trades on the project saying the GC is telling them the end date does not change so they have to compress their schedules. Some of the interior trades have walked away because of this. I walked through the building a couple months ago and they built interior partitions leaving out a 10' perimeter for the windows so they could at least get some of the work moving... this is in no way efficient and affects all the other trades.

If you don't understand how the other trades are affected by not having windows in, you have no idea how high rises are built efficiently. The trick to these jobs is to sequence each subsequent trade to follow one another efficiently up the building. Concrete, then windows, top track, risers, skimcoat, framing, rough-in, drywall/doors, prime, tile, flooring, cabinets, shower doors, window shades, etc, etc. If windows are missing, then you can't continue the cycle which will either extend the schedule or compress the subsequent trades hence the reason they tried to temporarily close up the floors to keep interior trades at least getting something done.

[Skyguy_7]

^Nailed it. You must be a contractor. LVDW is an owner. In my experience, the owner never fully understands schedule implications when an early trade is delayed. Sorry LVDW. You're a smart man, but in your rise to Real Estate Conglomerate you've forgotten about how it is to be a contractor under the gun!

[pilsenarch]

^Both, according to this article...

[Knightwing]

[Zerton]

Edit: Oops, this was just posted. I should have looked a few posts up ha.

The Engineering Behind Vista Tower's Unique Shape: Stacked Frustums Create Chicago’s Newest Super-Tall Tower

Saw that ^ on Reddit. (Sorry if it has already been posted). I thought it was very interesting. It discuses the reason for the design change to include the wind break floor among other things.



Liquid damper layout



Shear wall plan

[donnie]

Quick fact:
Chicago was the first to build a tower in the U.S. with a tuned mass damper(Park Tower)!

Vista will be using slush bucket type tho wich is too bad since i personaly love the one on the Taipei 101!

[10023]

^ Thanks that was interesting.

Does anyone have a photo comparison of the two systems? Something that would help to identify each, and also distinguish between inherent features of the façade system versus idiosyncratic features of an architect’s work?

edit: this seems like a decent summary as well... https://www.lenmak.com/curtain-window-wall/

[KWillChicago]

Yeah, if someone can post a video of the comparison that would be great, cuz I'm confused as hell between the two.