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  #1  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2022, 9:58 PM
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Eventually. There will be the need for new Class-A space and also tenants that seek to upgrade. A big thing going for the future towers of the pipeline are tenants seeking to upgrade space. Now assuming the landlord for "X" host tower doesn't renovate, newer towers or construction can always fill that niche.

On a side note, with Citadel abandoning ship in Chicago for Miami, I do wonder if that will trickle to NYC. I think given the investment in Miami-Dade, something will happen there but NYC is always as pointed out in the past, a safe bet.
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Old Posted Aug 23, 2022, 10:27 PM
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Eventually. There will be the need for new Class-A space and also tenants that seek to upgrade. A big thing going for the future towers of the pipeline are tenants seeking to upgrade space. Now assuming the landlord for "X" host tower doesn't renovate, newer towers or construction can always fill that niche.

On a side note, with Citadel abandoning ship in Chicago for Miami, I do wonder if that will trickle to NYC. I think given the investment in Miami-Dade, something will happen there but NYC is always as pointed out in the past, a safe bet.
I don’t think that Citadel’s plans in Miami affect their proposed investment in 350 Park, which will be a vastly more lucrative asset than anything that they can build in Fla.
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Old Posted Aug 24, 2022, 4:07 AM
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... which will be a vastly more lucrative asset than anything that they can build in Fla.
Ken: "Hold my billions..."
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  #4  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2022, 12:47 PM
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Again. This is not about what’s going on in Miami. Unless it’s specifically stated, let the Miami discussion remain in Miami. This is why we don’t do multi-city discussions.
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Old Posted Aug 25, 2022, 1:56 PM
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Even assuming that Vornado and Rudin jointly develop this site, it will still have a relatively small footprint. Thus, I suspect that it will attract boutique-type tenants that don't require enormous floor plates.

Finally, I believe that 350 Park is virtually empty, other than the space that Citadel recently rented, which is presumably temporary until 425 Park has been completed.


NYGuy: The current 350 Park has only 575k sf. If Vornado redeveloped this on its own, how much sf could it build under the Midtown East Rezoning. Do you know how many sf Vornado and Rudin could build jointly?

This has the potential to be the most prestigious office building in the world.

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Old Posted Aug 25, 2022, 8:10 PM
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^ I don’t have the lot size for that right in front of me, but the max FAR is 25. I do believe it’s mentioned how big the smaller tower could be earlier in this thread.

As far as total size and allowable FAR play off of each other, some comparisons below. (Note, the statewide max on residential is 12).



ONE VANDERBILT

1.653 m - 1.298 m (30 FAR)





CENTRAL PARK TOWER

1.617 m - 1.212 m (13.3 FAR)





STEINWAY TOWER

.581 m/entire building - .296 m /new addition. (12.8 FAR)





432 PARK AVENUE

.748 m (all buildings) - .595 m (14 FAR)





THE SPIRAL

2.609 m - 2.222 m (33 FAR)





50 HUDSON

2.868 m - 2.265 m (33FAR)





270 PARK

2.420 m - 1.863 m (23 FAR)






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Last edited by NYguy; Aug 25, 2022 at 8:26 PM.
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Old Posted Aug 25, 2022, 10:11 PM
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Thanks. I suspect that even if Vornado’s and Rudin’s parcels are combined, this tower would only be about 1.5m sf.
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  #8  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2022, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by JMKeynes View Post
Thanks. I suspect that even if Vornado’s and Rudin’s parcels are combined, this tower would only be about 1.5m sf.
From a couple of years ago…

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…The answer is it can go either way, Alex. We can build on our own. We don't need Rudin to build there. We can build a -- probably the best boutique building -- 1 million square foot boutique building on that site on our own, or we can combine with Rudin who is behind this and build close to a 2 million square foot building.

I’m sure they’re talking overall size. The larger tower would have an additional few hundred thousand sf added with mechanical, etc. on top of the zoned 1.68 msf.



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Old Posted Aug 25, 2022, 10:55 PM
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Is this for the joint Virnado/Rudin tower?
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Old Posted Aug 26, 2022, 1:48 AM
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This article states that a joint tower by Vornado and Rudin would be 1.68m sf.


https://therealdeal.com/2022/06/08/v...supertall/amp/

Vornado, Rudin court Citadel for Midtown supertall

BY LOIS WEISS JUN 8, 2022 7:00 AM


Vornado Realty Trust and Rudin Management are in conversations with Ken Griffith about his investment firm Citadel becoming an anchor tenant and an investor in the developers’ supertall office tower planned for Park Avenue, sources said.


The 1,450-foot-tall, 1.68-million-square-foot tower is getting closer to reality but is still years away from opening. Vornado owns the office building at 350 Park Avenue, which takes up the entire blockfront from East 51st to East 52nd streets and would be razed to make way for the unnamed tower.


Vornado’s partner in the ambitious project, Rudin Management, owns the building behind it at 40 East 52nd Street, which has an entrance on East 51st Street as well. Also known as the BlackRock building, it would also be demolished.

The two developers have the land, the zoning and plenty of experience building office towers, but Citadel has something that would surely help: $50 billion in investment capital, according to its website.


Along with deep pockets, Citadel has shown itself willing to pay record-high rent for office space: The $300 per square foot it agreed to pay at unbuilt 425 Park Avenue in 2015 was believed to be an all-time high in the city.

Vornado and Rudin declined to comment.

After the Midtown East rezoning, the two firms began talking about a collaboration at the Park Avenue and East 52nd Street site, as the New York Post reported in April 2019. A brochure found by YIMBY revealed drawings by Foster + Partners of the prospective tower.


The Griffith entity Citadel Securities was already both a sublease and direct tenant of Vornado, using 120,000 square feet at 350 Park Avenue while it awaited the completion of 425 Park.

Griffin took the top floor of the 47-story 425 Park for his own office, which boasts 38-foot high windows looking toward Central Park. But even at 680 feet above ground, he can’t see his $238 million quadplex apartment at Vornado’s 220 Central Park South — something that should be possible from the upper floors of 350 Park, which could be the city’s third tallest building.


Citadel, which could not be reached for comment, appears to be thinking far ahead at a time when other firms are trying to get a sense of how much space they will need in the post-Covid era.

Griffin’s companies expanded their occupancy at 425 Park with a new deal last month for 84,000 square feet and will now occupy 20 floors and 415,000 square feet. Citadel had been discussing taking space at 550 Madison Avenue before turning back to 425 Park.

It also has a lease at the Bloomberg building, 601 Lexington Avenue, which expires this year, and keeps a global headquarters in Chicago and other offices around the world.
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  #11  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2022, 11:53 AM
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This article states that a joint tower by Vornado and Rudin would be 1.68m sf.


https://therealdeal.com/2022/06/08/v...supertall/amp/


That’s exactly what I posted. But as you know by now, that’s a reference to zoned FAR space, not ultimately what will be the total size when factoring mechanical space.



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Old Posted Aug 26, 2022, 12:14 PM
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I assume that they could also buy air rights from Grand Central and local churches.
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Old Posted Aug 26, 2022, 12:39 PM
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I assume that they could also buy air rights from Grand Central and local churches.
The air rights are what will get it to that size. The basic FAR was raised from 12 to 15. Everything above that will have to be purchased.

Of course, a developer could always apply for something beyond zoning, but would have to make a compelling case for an increased FAR. The way it worked at 175 Park was through a semi-lot merger with Grand Central. Had that been a true lot merger, then 175 Park would still be greatly underbuilt.
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Old Posted Aug 26, 2022, 12:52 PM
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The air rights are what will get it to that size. The basic FAR was raised from 12 to 15. Everything above that will have to be purchased.

Of course, a developer could always apply for something beyond zoning, but would have to make a compelling case for an increased FAR. The way it worked at 175 Park was through a semi-lot merger with Grand Central. Had that been a true lot merger, then 175 Park would still be greatly underbuilt.
Thanks.
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  #15  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2022, 3:15 AM
JMKeynes JMKeynes is offline
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Vornado’s utter lack of detail for this tower, as compared to its other buildings on its website, is promising.

https://www.vno.com/office/property/...311665/landing
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  #16  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2022, 8:29 PM
JMKeynes JMKeynes is offline
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It seems that Citadel is looking to partner with Vornado and Rudin to build what could be the most sought after address in NYC. If, as it seems, this is built on spec., it will fill rapidly and at unprecedented rents.
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  #17  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2022, 8:54 PM
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Could fit nicely with their East Coast plans. I wonder if they plan on bringing some of the Chicago employees to NYC. Would make sense if this tower location is what they are eying. Although they can just transfer folks from their Lexington Ave location.
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Old Posted Sep 13, 2022, 9:47 PM
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Could fit nicely with their East Coast plans. I wonder if they plan on bringing some of the Chicago employees to NYC. Would make sense if this tower location is what they are eying. Although they can just transfer folks from their Lexington Ave location.
I suspect that most employees will choose NY over Miami. Miami’s winters are nice, but NY is the FAR better city. Also, NY is the financial capital of the world and is the place to be if you want to further your career in finance. Choosing NY over Miami to further a career in finance is akin to choosing Paris over Topeka, Kansas for a career in fashion or LA over Caspar, Wyoming for a film career.

Anyway, I get the impression that Citadel views 350 Park as an investment. It could be one of the most prestigious buildings in the world.

Last edited by JMKeynes; Sep 14, 2022 at 12:26 PM.
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Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 1:51 PM
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Blackstone, Rudin’s tenant at 345 Park, could anchor the new tower.

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2...w-york-office/

NYC’s Secret Weapon to Keep Finance Elite Is Park Avenue Revamp

By Amanda L Gordon
October 26, 2022

Quote:

When legendary architect Norman Foster agreed to design a glistening full-block building on New York’s Park Avenue in 2012, the city was still bouncing back from the financial crisis—a seemingly existential threat at the time.

Some six years later, as Wall Street returned to delivering record profits, JPMorgan Chase & Co. unveiled plans for a new headquarters on Manhattan’s boulevard of capital. There again was Foster + Partners, tasked with creating a 2.5 million-square-foot tower.

Foster, now 87, had no idea at the time, but these two buildings are shaping up to be New York’s best rejoinder to post-pandemic fears about the staying power of remote work, a mass exodus to South Florida, and—crucially—that the global capital of high finance has lost its luster.

Citadel, whose move to Miami sent shock waves across Wall Street, already has 100 employees working at 425 Park Ave., which formally opens Wednesday, and expects 1,000 to be settled in by summer next year. At JPMorgan’s 270 Park Ave., welding sparks fly as construction continues on a structure that will double the number of workers on that block. In between, lunch lines run 30 people deep at food carts; a new Aston Martin showroom is on the way.

Quote:

”The timing is very good—it’s coincident with all kinds of other developments in the wings,” Foster said in an interview. “There is only one Park Avenue, so it has to be special.”

Park Avenue’s 1-mile stretch in the heart of Manhattan, from Grand Central Terminal to Central Park, has long had one advantage above all: its concentration of wealth.

Along with Citadel’s Ken Griffin and JPMorgan’s Jamie Dimon, Blackstone Inc. Chief Executive Officer Steve Schwarzman works on the avenue and has a residence there. Izzy Englander’s Millennium Management and Eminence Capital are based at 399 Park, blocks away from other hedge funds including ExodusPoint Capital Management and GoldenTree Asset Management.

Investment banks PJT Partners, Moelis & Co. and Raymond James have Park Avenue addresses, too. The actual Wall Street is downtown, but the real epicenter of high finance has long been further north.

Quote:

Its density of office space and proximity to transit—some commuters from Greenwich and other suburbs can reach their buildings from below street level—make it a bellwether for the future of commercial real estate in New York. Just two blocks over on Third Avenue, scores of towers remain largely empty, caught between being too old to lure tenants who want the newest amenities and too new to be demolished or converted to housing.

Park Avenue, by contrast, has proved resilient. Employees of alternative-asset powerhouse Blackstone were back at their desks as early as September 2020. The return rate at the Seagram Building is 75% Tuesday to Thursday. The spaces BlackRock Inc. and Wells Fargo & Co. are leaving for Hudson Yards will be filled by Morgan Stanley and Blue Owl, among others.

Quote:

The north-south avenue is the “spine” of the city, said Vishaan Chakrabarti, an architect who’s working with Foster on 270 Park. “If Park Avenue thrives, the whole district will thrive, and that is fundamental to the entire city.”

Jon Gray has spent his entire career at Blackstone working at 345 Park Ave. The lease there runs through 2028 with options to renew, and Gray, Blackstone’s president, acknowledges there will have to be decisions about whether the 53-year-old building can be retrofitted or not.

Either way, the firm has a strong bias toward Midtown, he said in an interview.

“Park Avenue is hard to beat—it’s built for business,” Gray said. It’s convenient both for employees and for clients staying in hotels nearby. Plus, it has traffic running in both directions, making it easier to hail a cab going the right way.

“It seems like a little thing, but it makes a difference,” Gray said.

Quote:

The design for JPMorgan’s 270 Park got city approval in 2018, with the bank agreeing to facilitate critical work underground to prepare one of the world’s busiest transit networks for a future that involves fewer automobiles.

Plans for the neighborhood also call for eliminating car lanes and expanding the medians—a move designed to put the “park” back in Park Avenue—and create more space for a broader swath of workers, tourists and residents in the area. The tower will be the city’s largest all-electric one.
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  #20  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2022, 7:34 AM
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"In between, lunch lines run 30 people deep..."
I'm guessing that's just Uncle Gussy's, and that's not because the area is thriving. It's because Uncle Gussy's is sooooo good.
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