Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

But my main point in this thread is build your city on a damn grid. There are many ways to traffic calm a grid so you don't have people racing down your quiet street, but if you build a system of cul-de-sacs centered around one arterial and that road has to be closed for whatever reason, it would be really nice if you had a grid of local streets that could temporarily serve as a detour.

Agreed. Provides redundancy (also emergency vehicle access).

Side note: Oh WOW - this is the Surrey SkyTrain thread !

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Feel free to link a poll saying that most Vancouverites want a detached house, thus proving that you're not in an echo chamber of your own; TEAM, Coalition and the various neighbourhood associations always seem to think they've got the rest of the city on their side, and always end up getting unpleasantly surprised.

hey i am a young person to. i wish i has been born sooner so i wasnt a small child in the 90s

but i know why most of my friends have left CoV, they wanted a SFH; its why very few of the friends i grew up with are still here. so i know it personally from people born and raised here, such as myself. but since you asked, you can read these 2 things.

Brad West Mayor Comments

young families given up on SFH dream POLL

More than three-quarters (78 per cent) of Metro Vancouver’s young families reported that they would like to own a single-family home if budget was no barrier, with just 22 per cent expressing a preference for an attached home or condo. However, only 46 per cent of young family homeowners said they actually bought a detached house, with 27 per cent buying a townhome, duplex or other attached unit, and 27 per cent a condo.

as you can imagine, most things just talk about the fact people have abandoned the idea.


but i also like the fact you ignored the rest of my post talking about the issues with strata, insurance, strata fees, etc.

no one i have talked in this city seems to think the CoV is better today, than it was in the 90s. not one. we used to rank a lot higher in those "most liviable indexes" than we do now. so can people really sit there and say we are going in the right direction? i dont think so, but im not one of these people with a fancy planning degree who tells everyone else how they should want to live. but im out of this conversation now that i gave you what you asked for and said my peace. im sure youll come up with some other argument though.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by GMasterAres

I did want to pop this up to add clarity of my opinion on road design in Surrey. As noted above, it is definitely on a grid, no different than Vancouver. The key differences in Surrey (and most suburb cities in metro Vancouver also on grids) are:

1) Distance between blocks
2) Distance between MAJOR arterial roads

That is really the only issue you get between say Surrey's Grid and Vancouver's Grid. The reality in Vancouver let's not kid ourselves, is most of the side roads are terribly designed, not through roads, have barricades, don't flow fully through, are barely 1 lane, etc., so not really any different functionally for traffic as the dead-end and cul-de-sac roads are in Surrey.

In Surrey and all other Municipalities on the same numbered Streets and avenues in the lower mainland, every 8 streets/avenues is exactly 1 mile, which is typically designated as a main arterial, with sub-arterials being every 4 blocks between at 0.5 miles.

Same for Richmond and the No. roads, all exactly a mile apart, with each grid section being 0.5 miles by 0.5 miles.

Vancouver's arterial grid varies due to the boundaries between the pre-cursor municipalities and other land owners like South Vancouver, Granville, Point Grey, the CPR Land Grant, etc. So as far as arterials are concerned, it's a less perfect grid.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

I mean, I would probably buy a SFH in Kitsilano on the water if budget was no barrier.

But I would be interested what the study would look like if the question was: "Would you prefer to buy a SFH in Langley, or a condo in Yaletown". Because for me, the trade off isn't about small space vs. big space, but rather central location vs. big space. And I would rather be in the middle of the city in a small apartment than the outer suburbs in a big house.

[GMasterAres]

Sorry one more thing I want to add is that the roundy loop roads in Surrey are not a problem for Surrey exclusive nor of their own design, but rather I think generally the difference between suburb and urban centers.

Surrey was farmland when the grid system was first designed with little need to build a tight grid nor build major through roads. Secondly, major development is honestly fairly recent. I was raised in Surrey and when we moved to Newton in the late 80s to the area where Kings Cross is now, it was farms with cows and forest nearly everywhere. My friends lived in houses out of the late 60s and early 70s, and there wasn't a building taller than 2 storeys for multiple km.

Vancouver at that time had hundreds of high rises in downtown and was largely fully built our already.

It was a very different time and a very different place. So as Surrey has densified and other suburbs are, they do get challenged simply with land ownership that predates the current council. If you want an example of this you just need to go to a spot near 144th Ave and you'll see this:

https://goo.gl/maps/o1dvav62cJMdAAz2A

Basically a 2 lane modern road with newer development on either side that come straight up against a 70s/80s piece of property with a house and people living in it so they are unable to push the road through. Surrey is filled with a lot of that and this type of thing contributes to the challenge in making a modern road network.

With that said though, I do feel past councils in many of the suburb cities in Metro Vancouver have done a lot of talk but have not had the drive or dared to actually take action.

84th Avenue through Bear Creak Park has been discussed for decades. No council though ever had the cajones to push it through until recently. Similar discussion has happened for 30 years about 80th Ave and 72nd Ave. Then local residents are up in arms and Council backs down, so they definitely need to take responsibility for part of the mess and the delay.

It isn't Surrey exclusive though, you're seeing the same thing in Township of Langley and Maple Ridge for example. Development has outpaces previous councils' willingness to make tough decisions on infrastructure despite some opposition so I do agree with those that say they should be held to account for that.

Just like with the new SkyTrain line going out to Langley now, Surrey, Township of Langley and City of Langley need to b e held to account to ensure meaningful and well thought out development is pushed and encouraged around the new transit hubs now and into the future like we've seen in Burnaby (Edmonds, Metrotown, Brentwood, Lougheed) and Vancouver (Canada line most recently along Cambie and Oak Ridge).

I think there is definitely a shift in Surrey or there has been in recent years, we'll see if the current council can continue the trend and if they have any willingness to follow ToL in prioritizing the road grid with investment BEFORE redevelopment because if they are just going to continue the trend of roads not being expanded or upgraded until a developer pays for them, nothing will change.

[chowhou]

I'd buy a Porsche Taycan Turbo S if budget wasn't an issue but I'm perfectly happy with my current car.

Amongst my peers that have moved to Surrey/Langley (on or around the topic of this thread), it's all about maximizing space for the budget, not because they particularly want to live in suburbia.

I bet you if money wasn't a question and you gave someone the option of either a 2br 1930s SFH in New Westminster or a 5br penthouse in Yaletown, most would choose the 5br penthouse, but I might be mistaken.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by mcj

In Surrey and all other Municipalities on the same numbered Streets and avenues in the lower mainland, every 8 streets/avenues is exactly 1 mile, which is typically designated as a main arterial, with sub-arterials being every 4 blocks between at 0.5 miles.

Same for Richmond and the No. roads, all exactly a mile apart, with each grid section being 0.5 miles by 0.5 miles.

Vancouver's arterial grid varies due to the boundaries between the pre-cursor municipalities and other land owners like South Vancouver, Granville, Point Grey, the CPR Land Grant, etc. So as far as arterials are concerned, it's a less perfect grid.

Sorry for clarification, you mean for all the municipalities except for Vancouver correct? I did some measurements on Google in 1 mile increments, and it looks to me like Vancouver's grid is more like 14 to 18 streets/avenues per mile so at least double your number.

If that is the case, then that probably explains why in general traffic is terrible in all the suburbs lol. I mean again this isn't a Surrey exclusivity, Langley, Richmond, Coquitlam, etc., all have terrible traffic in general with crappy road networks. Coquitlam is special because you also get really terrible light timings (I know someone mentioned the red wave in Surrey but Coquitlam in my experience always seems as though they just purposely do it to piss everyone off...)

It does make sense though because in Vancouver when I look at it now, it does seem as though the what I'd call "major" east/west roads are about 1.6km between each other.

Maybe then that is less of an issue than I though and it comes down to being able to reroute around problems, the point I made toward the end. Vancouver's grid may just be a bit more resilient to problem on (x) major road means it is just easier for people to route around. Or maybe I'm just fully off my rocker. It just feels like in Surrey there is less N/S and E/W options for the size of the city and amount of traffic in general. And that when I see a bus, it is stuck just like everyone else putting along at 1km/h. Either way, the suburbs definitely are building roads bass ackwards and the cart (development) is coming before the horse (infrastructure) in many many areas.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I bet you if money wasn't a question and you gave someone the option of either a 2br 1930s SFH in New Westminster or a 5br penthouse in Yaletown, most would choose the 5br penthouse, but I might be mistaken.

Nah, I prefer being ground-orientated. Give me the 3 bedroom townhouse with a rooftop patio on Richard Street.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by GMasterAres

Sorry for clarification, you mean for all the municipalities except for Vancouver correct? I did some measurements on Google in 1 mile increments, and it looks to me like Vancouver's grid is more like 14 to 18 streets/avenues per mile so at least double your number.

All the municipalities on the same numbered streets/avenues system as Surrey. So that's Delta, Surrey, both Langleys, and Maple Ridge. (Richmond has a similar mile apart layout created at the same time but the numbering system is different).

Third part of the comment notes how Vancouver's grid is less perfect due to pre-cursor munis/landowners.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Nah, I prefer being ground-orientated. Give me the 3 bedroom townhouse with a rooftop patio on Richard Street.

Funny enough I have a lot of friends that prefer to be in condos explicitly not ground oriented due to concerns about security, disruptions, and - get this - insects because they "can't get up that far".

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Agreed. Provides redundancy (also emergency vehicle access).

Side note: Oh WOW - this is the Surrey SkyTrain thread !

Yah I know it may seem like off topic but I think the road grids are important part of it because once SkyTrain goes through, they will be rerouting busses and traffic is going to start adjusting its current trends. You also will have situations where there will not be added traffic to pick u p and drop people off at new SkyTrain stations if Surrey and Langley don't plan for, will introduce knew problems.

Anyone that has tried to get around King George Station during rush hour will know how insane the traffic can get there in the past just because of everyone trying to drop people off at SkyTrain. A lot of cities seem to assume once SkyTrain is built, people only arive by connecting bus which is completely false.

So I do worry about 140th, 160th, 168th, etc., which the designs don't seem to take into any account for vehicle drop-off both from an encouragement OR a discouragement (prohibit it).

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by mcj

All the municipalities on the same numbered streets/avenues system as Surrey. So that's Delta, Surrey, both Langleys, and Maple Ridge. (Richmond has a similar mile apart layout created at the same time but the numbering system is different).

Third part of the comment notes how Vancouver's grid is less perfect due to pre-cursor munis/landowners.

Makes sense. Thanks

[chowhou]

I think the issues with the Surrey grid vs Vancouver grid might be best summarized with the Translink bus maps of both:

Vancouver

Surrey

The disconnected, wide grid system makes for a disjoint less effective transit system. In Vancouver, any particular N/W bus can generally be taken to connect to an E/W bus and then each can funnel into and out of major transit hubs like Skytrain stations, but in Surrey that simply isn't the case.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I'd buy a Porsche Taycan Turbo S if budget wasn't an issue but I'm perfectly happy with my current car.

Amongst my peers that have moved to Surrey/Langley (on or around the topic of this thread), it's all about maximizing space for the budget, not because they particularly want to live in suburbia.

I bet you if money wasn't a question and you gave someone the option of either a 2br 1930s SFH in New Westminster or a 5br penthouse in Yaletown, most would choose the 5br penthouse, but I might be mistaken.

Yah for most people I'd agree. There are other factors too. I can only speak for myself, but we just moved from Surrey Central. We were in a townhouse as part of a multi-unit development (195 units in the 3 buildings) with our townhouse being 1 of 4 fronting Fraser Highway.

My children were effectively born into that place and called it home for 7 years. We enjoyed living there for the most part, it met our needs, the close proximity to things in general, and had fine amount of space. But our biggest issues were the just general unfriendliness to a growing family and the lack of close-proximity schools. If our kids wanted to play outside, we had to walk multiple blocks to a park with them, or jump in the car and drive to Bear Creek or something. It was an event every time. They couldn't simply go outside and play with other kids as we were on Fraser Highway and there effectively were no other kids.

We sold the townhouse and moved to Walnut Grove upgrading from a 1400 square foot 2 level townhouse with an 8 x 10 foot "front yard" basically, to a 3000 square foot SFH on an 7000 square foot lot. Our living space has not really grown because my parents moved in with us downstairs so are occupying 2 bedrooms + living space as they want to downsize and spend more time with the grandkids as they grow up BUT we did gain 1 additional room so my son no longer has to share a room with his sister like he did in the townhouse.

The biggest change though has been the neighborhood feel and honestly friendliness. Not that people in Surrey Central were unkind or rude, just purposely distant. Schools are closer but the streets are way quieter and we already know most of our neighbors. The one thing which I don't think can be measured, is that in the 7 years we lived in the townhouse, we barely spoke to or had interactions with anyone in the buildings. We didn't even know the names of our neighbors not for lack of trying, both my wife and I tried to interact but it went nowhere and they just wave and go about their business. We only toward the end found out one of our neighbors had a son in our daughter's grade!

We move to Walnut Grove and the first day, 5 of our neighbors came over to introduce themselves and welcome us to the neighborhood. And our kids were playing with some of the neighborhood kids already 2 days after we moved. SO much different. It just feels so much better now, honestly it is hard to quantify unless you experience that difference first-hand.

And there is NO reason why it shouldn't be that way in townhouses or condos, but it is. Trust me it is. And I think that is a big contributor to why young families want to move to SFH neighborhoods. It isn't fully about size and space or being on a major road, but in general and in my experience, the unfriendliness of dense developments in Metro Vancouver.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I think the issues with the Surrey grid vs Vancouver grid might be best summarized with the Translink bus maps of both:

Vancouver

Surrey

The disconnected, wide grid system makes for a disjoint less effective transit system. In Vancouver, any particular N/W bus can generally be taken to connect to an E/W bus can can funnel into and out of major transit hubs like Skytrain stations, but in Surrey that simply isn't the case.

This is where the Skytrain will have a positive impact. We already have an indication of what the western half of the bus routes will look like in Fleetwood from the prior stage of the project:



Not exactly perfect, but it connects up better than previous with the Skytrain doing most of the heavy lifting for E/W routes in Fleetwood.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by GMasterAres

And there is NO reason why it shouldn't be that way in townhouses or condos, but it is. Trust me it is. And I think that is a big contributor to why young families want to move to SFH neighborhoods. It isn't fully about size and space or being on a major road, but in general and in my experience, the unfriendliness of dense developments in Metro Vancouver.

I know things are the way you described in a lot of multi-unit buildings, but it isn't the rule. My wife and I know most of our neighbors in our three-story apartment building. I go biking with the guy across the hallway regularly. A lady upstairs has volunteered to babysit our daughter. The people at the grocery store recognize us now and say hi. And there is a regular crowd at the park and playground that we recognize.

It is just as easy to be lonely in a SFH as an apartment. And besides, most people connect more easily with their co-workers or the other parents at daycare than with their neighbors. The sense of community in a multi-unit building varies significantly building-to-building.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

... but i know why most of my friends have left CoV, they wanted a SFH; its why very few of the friends i grew up with are still here. so i know it personally from people born and raised here, such as myself. but since you asked, you can read these 2 things...

... but i also like the fact you ignored the rest of my post talking about the issues with strata, insurance, strata fees, etc.

no one i have talked in this city seems to think the CoV is better today, than it was in the 90s. not one. we used to rank a lot higher in those "most liviable indexes" than we do now. so can people really sit there and say we are going in the right direction? i dont think so, but im not one of these people with a fancy planning degree who tells everyone else how they should want to live. but im out of this conversation now that i gave you what you asked for and said my peace. im sure youll come up with some other argument though.

You're right - I do have some other argument. Starting with the fact that your 78% of other young Vancouverites who like SFHs already have 90% of the metro to play with, while the other 22% who like highrises only have 10%.
There's no way to make the CoV suburbs affordable again, and having enough detached housing to fit everybody who wants it means rezoning every forest and farm all the way to Hope (and all the traffic that comes with it), which won't happen either. So pretty much the only way to build from here is up.

Because that's bad logic. Ever heard of a homeowner association and its fees? What about house insurance? Or utilities, cleaning, handymen, landscaping and all the stuff strata fees covered that's suddenly all on you now? LBH, it's still homeownership and all the costs that come with it.

Degree? Nah, I just know how numbers work. I also don't make post hoc fallacies where Vancouver was the most livable city... because of our detached houses? That's a hot take on several levels.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by mcj

This is where the Skytrain will have a positive impact. We already have an indication of what the western half of the bus routes will look like in Fleetwood from the prior stage of the project...

... Not exactly perfect, but it connects up better than previous with the Skytrain doing most of the heavy lifting for E/W routes in Fleetwood.

Indeed. And now with an anchor in the middle, there's a business case for a RapidBus down 152nd to Newton, and another to Carvolth and Walnut Grove. Transit south of the Fraser's about to get a whole lot easier.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I mean, I would probably buy a SFH in Kitsilano on the water if budget was no barrier.

But I would be interested what the study would look like if the question was: "Would you prefer to buy a SFH in Langley, or a condo in Yaletown". Because for me, the trade off isn't about small space vs. big space, but rather central location vs. big space. And I would rather be in the middle of the city in a small apartment than the outer suburbs in a big house.

Exactly!

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Funny enough I have a lot of friends that prefer to be in condos explicitly not ground oriented due to concerns about security, disruptions, and - get this - insects because they "can't get up that far".

This is me 100%.