Downtown Vancouver Updates

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Sounds like he's just going to store his collection and loan it out. I wonder if the new building next door is all strata?

This article says he dumped over $20 million renovating it (again not sure if that's just the Wing Sang).

https://nuvomagazine.com/magazine/summer-2015/bob-rennie

Yes, thanks, I saw that subsequently. His collection will be in secure storage in Burnaby, and loaned to art galleries, and he's not going to be having shows of other artists any more, which is a shame, but understandable.

The building next door was developed in 2008 by Jameson, and has 22 strata units (and retail or office on the main floor).

[djmk]

Apparently the Balmoral is slated to be demolished.

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/vancouver-balmoral-hotel-demolished?r

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by djmk

Apparently the Balmoral is slated to be demolished.

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/vancouver-balmoral-hotel-demolished?r

No facade retention?!?
Surely if it were a private developer, the City would be all over that.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by djmk

Apparently the Balmoral is slated to be demolished.

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/vancouver-balmoral-hotel-demolished?r

Good thing Vancouver tax payers have unlimited funds.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by officedweller

No facade retention?!?
Surely if it were a private developer, the City would be all over that.

Originally Posted by rofina

Good thing Vancouver tax payers have unlimited funds.

According to the article:

Two third-party engineering reports have found the building has deteriorated to the point that it now poses a danger to the public and adjacent buildings.

At some point, it becomes more cost-effective for the city to start anew, and it makes more sense than putting millions into compensating for the Sahota family's neglect.

[officedweller]

Private developers have also deconstructed facades and rebuilt them brick by brick.
I was thinking more along the lines of erecting a steel strutcure to support the facade while the building behind is demolished,
though the Balmoral is quite tall.


https://canada.constructconnect.com/dcn/...hing-old-something-new-king-blue-project

https://canada.constructconnect.com/dcn/...hing-old-something-new-king-blue-project

[rofina]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

According to the article:



At some point, it becomes more cost-effective for the city to start anew, and it makes more sense than putting millions into compensating for the Sahota family's neglect.

Or - perhaps this is why these hotels should have stayed in the Sahota's hands, so this multi million dollar debacle is one that they have to pay for.

At the least the City could likely force them to tear down or make safe.

This was a problem of their making - instead they got $11 million to walk away, and leave tax payers to foot the bill for their lack of maintenance.

I mean, how is this not completely asinine? I don't understand how Vancouvrites just accept these deals as reality.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by rofina

I mean, how is this not completely asinine? I don't understand how Vancouvrites just accept these deals as reality.

these are the same people who vote in jean swansons. thats the answer.

[Migrant_Coconut]

No reason the City can't sue the Sahotas for the full demolition and redevelopment costs; they won't, because reasons, but it's an option.

What really sucks is that they'll probably use their new wealth to buy another historic building and let that degrade too.

[Klazu]

It's funny of them to say that the building is a danger to the public and not those living there. What a waste of tax-payer money and the previous owner is laughing all the way to the bank of this city's stupidity.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

i dont see why the CoV didn't just force it down as being a hazard... that is in the power of the CoV... why did they need to take ownership of the liability? it doesn't make sense to me...

[Changing City]

It's a shame to lose the Balmoral's facade - but nothing behind it is any loss. It cost the City about $6m to buy it, which is what the land is valued at. (There were two hotels in the $11m deal, the other is going to be refurbished). It's costing $1m a year to protect it 24/7, which isn't reasonable to keep paying out long term. Until the City obtained ownership they were in no position to send in independent engineers to advise on the true state of the building, and get an estimate of renovation costs - around $46m. If they'd gone that route, all the commenters decrying the demolition would have been shouting about the costs for renovations. BC Housing said back in May that they thought the Balmoral was too far gone to save.

There's a reported discussion going on between Wall Financial and BC Housing for a possible development on a large land assembly that would include several properties, including some owned by Concord Pacific there. It would presumably be something like the Wall project a block up the street, with market and non-market rental.

[hollywoodnorth]

https://twitter.com/ibigroup/status/1493314781834588161

IBI Group@ibigroup

We’re proud to provide our architectural services to @ReliancePropLtd for a residential building located at 1075 West Georgia in #Vancouver. The building will reserve 100 units for essential workers enabling them to live close to where they work. #IBILiving




not really a fan of the current design. needs to match up with the MacMillan Bloedel Building better. Needs to be more Brutalist to do so IMO.

[Metro-One]

The concrete waffle is 103 metres to the top… this render suggests this tower is over 150 metres.

Hope that’s true…

That’s a fantastic location for a taller tower.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by Changing City

It's a shame to lose the Balmoral's facade - but nothing behind it is any loss. It cost the City about $6m to buy it, which is what the land is valued at. (There were two hotels in the $11m deal, the other is going to be refurbished). It's costing $1m a year to protect it 24/7, which isn't reasonable to keep paying out long term. Until the City obtained ownership they were in no position to send in independent engineers to advise on the true state of the building, and get an estimate of renovation costs - around $46m. If they'd gone that route, all the commenters decrying the demolition would have been shouting about the costs for renovations. BC Housing said back in May that they thought the Balmoral was too far gone to save.

There's a reported discussion going on between Wall Financial and BC Housing for a possible development on a large land assembly that would include several properties, including some owned by Concord Pacific there. It would presumably be something like the Wall project a block up the street, with market and non-market rental.

I appreciate your posts because you always come to the table with good information, but this good information usually just makes my blood boil more.

The City started barking up this tree. Lets not forget that. The City cornered the Sahotas into selling, after the legal battle to try and repossess these properties.

That's Part 1 - City started this shit show.

Part 2 - How can they possibly not have known this would be the end outcome when the entire story starts off with the City complaining about lack of maintenance to the Sahota properties?

Part 3 - What absolute moron buys property without a even a basic risk assessment to understand the ongoing operational costs? I mean, this doesn't even take a particularly astute investor to do.

I understand there were reasons for these decisions. I'm simply saying whoever is signing off on these ideas at inception and seeing them through is misguided to put nicely, without the tax payers best interest in mind.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by rofina

...Part 1 - City started this shit show...

No, the Sahota family created this situation through a profound multi-decade disregard for their tenants. Has the City's response been perfect? No, absolutely not, but it does seem to be a textbook example of being caught between a rock and a hard place. There's a very interesting Globe and Mail feature on the Sahotas from a few years ago:

Globe and Mail: For low-income residents in Vancouver, a different kind of real estate crisis

(Paywall, but incognito mode seems to allow access)

And from the Tyee in 2008:

The Tyee: A City Soft on ‘Slumlords’

[rofina]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

No, the Sahota family created this situation through a profound multi-decade disregard for their tenants. Has the City's response been perfect? No, absolutely not, but it does seem to be a textbook example of being caught between a rock and a hard place. There's a very interesting Globe and Mail feature on the Sahotas from a few years ago:

Globe and Mail: For low-income residents in Vancouver, a different kind of real estate crisis

(Paywall, but incognito mode seems to allow access)

And from the Tyee in 2008:

The Tyee: A City Soft on ‘Slumlords’

I acknowledge this, good counter points.

However, I would say this goes even deeper.

Its mathematically impossible to operate an SRO and maintain it to any reasonable standard. This is always going to be a money losing proposition; its all in the model.

Therefore a private operator cannot make a go of it as a business.

Secondly, this ignores the stark reality of what happens in these places.

I can speak from expereince with my nose and 2 eyes; these places get absolutely demolished. I have visited a half dozen BC Housing and Atira places, its the same story everywhere. Be it the new modular housing, or places like the Balmoral.

The tenants don't care and will absolutely destroy the property. This happens literally daily. We can speak to the reasons why this is a reality, but that's largely beside the point.

This creates a very unique situation; you have low rent paying tenants with no financial security, you have dramatically below market rates, you have no means of adding revenue, you have no means of funding repairs without serious subsidies.

The whole model is broken.

What I am upset at is the fact this isn't really rocket science, and I am exhausted that this always falls to the City to pay for and address out of local tax dollars.

These are provincial and federal issues.

The City needs a martyr; a Civic leader that will probably only win one time, that needs to absolutely put the province and the Feds on blast. Embarrass, internationally if need be.

Lets not kid ourselves; we can resolve our homeless and mental health issues inside of 36 months with a few strokes of a pen and few cuts of red tape. This isn't a particularly difficult file because of anything intrinsic, our limitations are entirely self imposed.

It would take 5 billion max. An amount of money that Ottawa wastes weekly to end this issue for good. The amount of good produced would be immeasurable.

The fact this conversation isn't taking place should be made an international embarrassment.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

No, the Sahota family created this situation through a profound multi-decade disregard for their tenants. Has the City's response been perfect? No, absolutely not, but it does seem to be a textbook example of being caught between a rock and a hard place. There's a very interesting Globe and Mail feature on the Sahotas from a few years ago:

Globe and Mail: For low-income residents in Vancouver, a different kind of real estate crisis

(Paywall, but incognito mode seems to allow access)

And from the Tyee in 2008:

The Tyee: A City Soft on ‘Slumlords’

The state of the Balmoral has been deplorable for decades. There are pictures of the interior from 1995 in the Vancouver Archives. None of us would have wanted to live there. The design of the building means a lot of the rooms are small and dark - it wasn't a great hotel in the 1910s when it was built - in fact it was initially designed as an office building, and then converted to apartments, but then opened in 1913 as a hotel. Small dark hotel rooms might be OK to stay in for a day or two, but don't make great long-term homes.

The City tried to get necessary repairs carried out by the Sahotas for years. If the cost of doing the work was more than the fines for not doing it, they paid the fines (eventually). In 2017 the Sun reported "Former employee Sam Dharmapala said fines have not changed the family’s practices in the past, and he doesn’t expect anything different this time."

So the City forced the building to be closed, which meant no income stream. The Sahota family still didn't fix the place up, although they did stop leaks making things worse. Why they would choose to avoid spending a couple of million to bring it to basic habitable condition and then put in a competent management company we don't know, but they didn't.

That left the City with two choices; leave it as an empty fire risk for who knows how long, or try to get the building into ownership. Leaving it empty doesn't solve the housing problem. Holborn have sat on the Dunsmuir Hotel for over 10 years, with no sign of renovation or reuse, after it was closed down as too dangerous to occupy. In theory the City could have carried out repairs at the Balmoral and charged the cost to the owners - but there's no guarantee of getting any or all the money back. So they chose to initially try expropriation (with the potential of failing, or having to pay an unknown settlement decided by the courts). The Sahotas were willing to sell at what was essentially land value, so that seems like a reasonable deal.

Having acquired the building the City were able to get far more detailed and extensive surveys of the state of the building and the options. It was always on the cards it could be redeveloped as part of a comprehensive project. Three other East Hastings buildings are being demolished and replaced, at least one an old hotel like this. The City would have to do the work to code - so all new plumbing, wiring, floors, walls, and some seismic work - so $46m seems a likely potential cost (and it could easily be higher). At the end of it they get a converted old hotel like about 20 others that they and BC Housing own. They're not as good to live in as the new non-market buildings that are being built. So the decision is to replace it, rather than keep it. They've acquired a site at land value, and they have to pay to clear it (but that's probably less than the cost of keeping it empty and secure). It won't be City money that replaces the building; it'll be BC Housing, probably with some federal funds and a private sector partner like Wall. The City will provide the land, as they have with many other recent non-market projects in the DTES and elsewhere in the city.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by Changing City

The state of the Balmoral has been deplorable for decades. There are pictures of the interior from 1995 in the Vancouver Archives. None of us would have wanted to live there. The design of the building means a lot of the rooms are small and dark - it wasn't a great hotel in the 1910s when it was built - in fact it was initially designed as an office building, and then converted to apartments, but then opened in 1913 as a hotel. Small dark hotel rooms might be OK to stay in for a day or two, but don't make great long-term homes.

Love the history. Appreciate you sharing that.

The City tried to get necessary repairs carried out by the Sahotas for years. If the cost of doing the work was more than the fines for not doing it, they paid the fines (eventually). In 2017 the Sun reported "Former employee Sam Dharmapala said fines have not changed the family’s practices in the past, and he doesn’t expect anything different this time."

So the City forced the building to be closed, which meant no income stream. The Sahota family still didn't fix the place up, although they did stop leaks making things worse. Why they would choose to avoid spending a couple of million to bring it to basic habitable condition and then put in a competent management company we don't know, but they didn't.

I don't think this is a secret or complicated; why waste the money? There's no way to recover capital while operating an SRO, let alone profit. So why sink the capital in the first place?

That left the City with two choices; leave it as an empty fire risk for who knows how long, or try to get the building into ownership. Leaving it empty doesn't solve the housing problem. Holborn have sat on the Dunsmuir Hotel for over 10 years, with no sign of renovation or reuse, after it was closed down as too dangerous to occupy. In theory the City could have carried out repairs at the Balmoral and charged the cost to the owners - but there's no guarantee of getting any or all the money back. So they chose to initially try expropriation (with the potential of failing, or having to pay an unknown settlement decided by the courts). The Sahotas were willing to sell at what was essentially land value, so that seems like a reasonable deal.

Glad to know it transacted at land value. That redeems the story a good bit.

Having acquired the building the City were able to get far more detailed and extensive surveys of the state of the building and the options. It was always on the cards it could be redeveloped as part of a comprehensive project. Three other East Hastings buildings are being demolished and replaced, at least one an old hotel like this. The City would have to do the work to code - so all new plumbing, wiring, floors, walls, and some seismic work - so $46m seems a likely potential cost (and it could easily be higher). At the end of it they get a converted old hotel like about 20 others that they and BC Housing own. They're not as good to live in as the new non-market buildings that are being built. So the decision is to replace it, rather than keep it. They've acquired a site at land value, and they have to pay to clear it (but that's probably less than the cost of keeping it empty and secure). It won't be City money that replaces the building; it'll be BC Housing, probably with some federal funds and a private sector partner like Wall. The City will provide the land, as they have with many other recent non-market projects in the DTES and elsewhere in the city.

Here's to hoping there are no more costs out of Vancouver coffers, any dollar spent here is a dollar that should be going to services lacking elsewhere.

[logan5]

Not that I feel sorry for the Sahota’s, but is it even possible to not lose money operating a residence like this? The monthly income is low, and the maintenance costs would be sky high.