The Centre Plan (Urban Core Regional Plan)

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Hardly a success. Businesses there cannot even receive deliveries half the time. Just wait until they apply that same thinking to SGR. Great way to kill a street.

Part of the problem is that they are taking concepts used elsewhere and trying to apply them here, but fail to take into account that where they have been done elsewhere, streets involved were much wider and therefore offered much more flexibility. Making Argyle essentially a 1-lane path was a very bad idea.

I disagree, businesses are quite happy having year-round patio options and larger outdoor eating areas as well as more foot traffic. Also, there is no reason you need to have Argyle St as a car-oriented street. It is not that crucial to traffic flow downtown.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

I disagree, businesses are quite happy having year-round patio options and larger outdoor eating areas as well as more foot traffic. Also, there is no reason you need to have Argyle St as a car-oriented street. It is not that crucial to traffic flow downtown.

I agree completely with your points. There is no reason to drive on Argyle at all, unless you are dropping someone off or picking them up. Argyle doesn't go anywhere, so it has no value as a thoroughfare.

The single traffic lane provides access for dropoffs and pickups (taxi or personal), and deliveries. Meanwhile, given that most businesses there are restaurants, bars, and a theatre, it makes a whole lot of sense to keep it pedestrian-oriented, with the ability to block it off completely for special events.

Year-round patios are most beneficial to the businesses, as they can now install permanent patios and don't have to go to the expense of building new ones and removing them every year... so it saves them money and time, plus gives them the ability to actually use the patios during the edge seasons, when you have some unseasonably warm days - just put out tables and chairs, and they are ready to go. Then there are the side benefits to use them in unusual circumstances... i.e. pandemics et. al.

If you want to take the business case further, having Argyle as a pedestrian destination makes people go there just to be able to enjoy the ambiance - have a meal or a drink or two, stroll around and people-watch, or whatever. Drawing people to a place of business is good for... business.

[someone123]

It's nice to see the heritage district designation there but I wonder what the city will do to protect the feel of places like Agricola or Robie.

One challenge with planning is that blanket rules tend to be applied over large areas, but often character comes down to a subtle balance of buildings and selective conservation. In the abstract, if 1/2 of the worst buildings on Agricola were torn down and replaced with sympathetic medium density buildings with some character and then the other 1/2 were brought up to a better state of conservation, that would be a huge net win. But I'm not sure the Centre Plan has strong enough mechanisms for assuring that sort of outcome. Spring Garden Road is another example. The outcome around SGR and Queen could have been much better with some comparatively minor tweaking, but there was no coordination. I don't think the outcome there will be bad but it'll be far below what was possible.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by someone123

In the abstract, if 1/2 of the worst buildings on Agricola were torn down and replaced with sympathetic medium density buildings with some character and then the other 1/2 were brought up to a better state of conservation, that would be a huge net win. But I'm not sure the Centre Plan has strong enough mechanisms for assuring that sort of outcome. Spring Garden Road is another example. The outcome around SGR and Queen could have been much better with some comparatively minor tweaking, but there was no coordination. I don't think the outcome there will be bad but it'll be far below what was possible.

Totally agree. Ultimately, that would mean a much more prescriptive and specific approach to those streets that I really don't feel the architects of the Centre Plan have considered.

But I was discussing the Barrington/Inglis area online the other day, and was informed there's a likely expansion of the heritage district proposed for lower Barrington that may protect more historic buildings in that sort of triangle down there. Ideally that could work similarly--protect buildings that contribute to the HCD while leaving the rest to be redeveloped. That would depend on how long it takes to actually put into place, though.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Totally agree. Ultimately, that would mean a much more prescriptive and specific approach to those streets that I really don't feel the architects of the Centre Plan have considered.

I often read comments from people in Halifax saying the city hasn't inherited historic assets like other historic cities. Some cities have been naturally preserved but a lot have been deliberately enhanced or rebuilt after some sort of damage or decline. Generally with some kind of public-sector management and intentionality, not free market development alone. And there is a willingness to invest non-trivial sums to add character and interest.

Halifax had some early examples of this like the Citadel or Historic Properties but there hasn't been much of a push in recent years. Barrington is sort of headed in the right direction but in most ways it was too little, too late. There are tons of opportunities for great restorations like the Pacific Building but they don't seem to happen even though the city is growing rapidly and there's lots of money floating around.

The developers often get blamed for not doing the right thing and I think sometimes they deserve criticism but the municipality and province should do their jobs too. And the fact is there will always be "bad actor" investors looking for a quick buck and they will do bad things without regulation to stop them. They'll just wait until the next downturn, buy some Georgian stone buildings, then knock em over and build office towers 20 years later, no problem. That's the outcome if heritage registration only means "wait N years for a demo permit".

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I agree completely with your points. There is no reason to drive on Argyle at all, unless you are dropping someone off or picking them up. Argyle doesn't go anywhere, so it has no value as a thoroughfare.

The single traffic lane provides access for dropoffs and pickups (taxi or personal), and deliveries. Meanwhile, given that most businesses there are restaurants, bars, and a theatre, it makes a whole lot of sense to keep it pedestrian-oriented, with the ability to block it off completely for special events.

So it doesn't have value as a thoroughfare, until it does? Riiight.


It has become neither fish nor fowl nor good red herring as it now sits. Is it accessible to vehicles or not? Nobody knows. Sometimes it is, sometimes it is a pedestrian mall. That's no good for anybody.

Meanwhile, in a twist of irony, after 25 years as a successful retailer on Argyle, Biscuit General Store announced today that they are shutting down the Argyle location and moving to the retail hotbed of Gottingen at Falkland. But who can blame them from getting away from the downtown core and especially Argyle? The city has made it a party street for college kids and other young rowdy party types, and the rest of downtown is not welcoming to many potential customers of such a store. Boozy party types are a very mercurial and trendy market. In a few years they could all be going to another street.

[Querce]

I'm sure downtown will be absolutely devastated by having one business move about 4 blocks north

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

So it doesn't have value as a thoroughfare, until it does? Riiight.

Huh? Argyle has never been a thoroughfare, unless you call cars circling the block for a parking space to appear being a thoroughfare.

Originally Posted by Keith P.

It has become neither fish nor fowl nor good red herring as it now sits. Is it accessible to vehicles or not? Nobody knows. Sometimes it is, sometimes it is a pedestrian mall. That's no good for anybody.

Meanwhile, in a twist of irony, after 25 years as a successful retailer on Argyle, Biscuit General Store announced today that they are shutting down the Argyle location and moving to the retail hotbed of Gottingen at Falkland. But who can blame them from getting away from the downtown core and especially Argyle? The city has made it a party street for college kids and other young rowdy party types, and the rest of downtown is not welcoming to many potential customers of such a store. Boozy party types are a very mercurial and trendy market. In a few years they could all be going to another street.

I don't see this as groundbreaking. Retail landscapes change all the time. Businesses move for a number of reasons. Life goes on.

Meanwhile, post-pandemic, Argyle will continue to be a success in its current iteration. Many will enjoy it, a few will grumble that it has changed. Life goes on.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

I often read comments from people in Halifax saying the city hasn't inherited historic assets like other historic cities. Some cities have been naturally preserved but a lot have been deliberately enhanced or rebuilt after some sort of damage or decline. Generally with some kind of public-sector management and intentionality, not free market development alone. And there is a willingness to invest non-trivial sums to add character and interest.

Halifax had some early examples of this like the Citadel or Historic Properties but there hasn't been much of a push in recent years. Barrington is sort of headed in the right direction but in most ways it was too little, too late. There are tons of opportunities for great restorations like the Pacific Building but they don't seem to happen even though the city is growing rapidly and there's lots of money floating around.

The developers often get blamed for not doing the right thing and I think sometimes they deserve criticism but the municipality and province should do their jobs too. And the fact is there will always be "bad actor" investors looking for a quick buck and they will do bad things without regulation to stop them. They'll just wait until the next downturn, buy some Georgian stone buildings, then knock em over and build office towers 20 years later, no problem. That's the outcome if heritage registration only means "wait N years for a demo permit".

Well said.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Huh? Argyle has never been a thoroughfare, unless you call cars circling the block for a parking space to appear being a thoroughfare.

Your word use, not mine.

I don't see this as groundbreaking. Retail landscapes change all the time. Businesses move for a number of reasons. Life goes on.

25 years in one spot is notable, especially when that business decides to pull the rip cord on what had been a very successful location. It seems more and more clear that DT is not a retail area.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Your word use, not mine.

You lost me there, but no matter - it was an extremely unimportant point. The fact is that the street functions well as it currently is... IMHO. YHO can be different... it's fine.

Originally Posted by Keith P.

25 years in one spot is notable, especially when that business decides to pull the rip cord on what had been a very successful location. It seems more and more clear that DT is not a retail area.

I think you're reading a narrative into it that suits your mindset. According to this article... yes, she says the street has changed around her shop, but she is evolving the business closer to what she wants it to be, and the Gottingen area has changed into a place more suitable for her shop. It's hardly a 'big evil city ruins street and kills local business' story. She will soon have 3 separate shops in the Gottingen area.

As business areas evolve, the Gottingen vibe will suit her business much better than Argyle, and now the space vacated by her store will be available for yet another business to flourish. Sounds more like a success story than the failure that is being portrayed.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Querce

I'm sure downtown will be absolutely devastated by having one business move about 4 blocks north

This seems to continue a positive trend that's been happening, where the downtown commercial core expands and different parts specialize more. Gottingen-Agricola might eventually become the most unique commercial corridor while SGR will be more high end retail chains. Not sure what Barrington will end up looking like.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

You lost me there, but no matter - it was an extremely unimportant point. The fact is that the street functions well as it currently is... IMHO. YHO can be different... it's fine.

You called it a thoroughfare in your original post. Then in your second time you said it never was. That was the only point.

I think you're reading a narrative into it that suits your mindset. According to this article... yes, she says the street has changed around her shop, but she is evolving the business closer to what she wants it to be, and the Gottingen area has changed into a place more suitable for her shop. It's hardly a 'big evil city ruins street and kills local business' story. She will soon have 3 separate shops in the Gottingen area.

As business areas evolve, the Gottingen vibe will suit her business much better than Argyle, and now the space vacated by her store will be available for yet another business to flourish. Sounds more like a success story than the failure that is being portrayed.

It might be better than what Argyle has become, but I think she may be whistling in the graveyard. On other forums I just recently read about the epidemic of IV drug use that has taken over certain areas on the peninsula of late, and the area where she is moving to was noted as one of the afflicted zones, with discarded needles on the sidewalks and gutters, and junkies nodding on the bench in front of the closed EDNA restaurant. Hardly the kind of place where stylish and trendy young ladies wish to frequent.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

You called it a thoroughfare in your original post. Then in your second time you said it never was. That was the only point.

Specifically I said it has no value as a thoroughfare... i.e. it never was one, so it's not a loss if traffic is removed from it.

[Querce]

Package B has been passed!