Saskatoon | Baydo Towers | ??m - ??m | 25-25 Floors | U/C

[prairieguy]

Man....I know the desire is for animation at street level with retail and services, but look how successful The Banks in Riversdale has been with that concept. Majority of its street level commercial space sits empty, unfortunately. There has to be commercial demand...just because you build/include the space doesn't mean it will be utilized.

I really thought The Banks would be a good location for that concept. (pub, pharmacy/convenience store, barber, niche condo furniture type store, etc.)

[roryn1]

I think the issue with the banks is the psf cost. You look at how the new starbs on 2nd and 25th’s strip mall filled within weeks. You’ll probably see that with Baydo’s since their psf cost is more competitive with the market. I could be wrong, but I think their condos/retail are close to 1/3 the cost of Banks/No1 River Landing. I think less concrete in their building and more steel is the main reason for such a lower cost?

[alt_center]

I agree the Banks has been a huge disappointment in terms of the retail uptake. I do hold out hope, though, that things will improve for them when (if) the remaining land gets developed, including that huge ugly gravel parking lot.

I suppose the Banks developer did not think that 10 years on all that prime land would still be vacant. Lets also hope that the new tenants of the "farmers market" site have longer opening hours.

Likewise River Landing village itself. I am a bit surprised the space in the bottom of the condo tower is not yet leased, but soon the dust and construction of the plaza will be a thing of the past and we will see a coffee shop or something like that in there. (Hopefully not a pot store or a tattoo parlour though.)

[roryn1]

If you look at the only buildings truly having struggling vacancy rates downtown it’s the higher quality, higher psf buildings like Banks, Scotia Center, River Quarry, Saskatoon Square’s main levels that would definitely be opened into retail if the right tenant came along. There’s too much cheap psf rent downtown to even consider the other spaces. We haven’t really gotten a new large tenant downtown with all of this new office space, nor is No1 River Landing’s units a game changer to downtown’s population since only extremely rich that are usually vacationing moved into there. I’d say that Baydo’s units are going to be the thing that brings a massive upswing in tenants downtown - normal people that have normal cost of living - lots of students about to move downtown, which downtown yxe desperately needs in their downtown. We needed some cheaper builds downtown - we needed premium commercial too / but the pandemic has really messed that whole system up ha. Time to convert some of this vacant premium commercial into condos!

[Roquentin]

Originally Posted by prairieguy

Man....I know the desire is for animation at street level with retail and services, but look how successful The Banks in Riversdale has been with that concept. Majority of its street level commercial space sits empty, unfortunately. There has to be commercial demand...just because you build/include the space doesn't mean it will be utilized.

I really thought The Banks would be a good location for that concept. (pub, pharmacy/convenience store, barber, niche condo furniture type store, etc.)

I think it's true that not every new development needs to or should include commercial space. Retail bays might be out of place in a building like Escala, say. The Banks is kind of an interesting case, though. It's the type of development that I think always should have been mixed use, but I wonder if it went a little overboard in terms of how much commercial space it offers. After all, it's a small-ish development in a relatively low-density area surrounded by a shit-ton of retail space (cheaper retail space, I'd imagine). 19th Street is pretty sleepy too, compared to 20th. As well, the commercial bays that face into the courtyard were always pretty ambitious. I wonder if the developer has any regrets. More ground-floor townhouse units might have been better than all that commercial space. And of course, covid hasn't helped.

In my opinion (knock on wood), the commercial space in these towers should be a slam dunk. 25th and 5th is right in the centre of a high-density area with very few commercial offerings relative to the area around The Banks or the rest of the downtown. Rental rates will be key, but I think that a range of businesses could clean up in that location. It's so close to being a (rare!) "complete street," in that there aren't really any vacant spots on that strip to fill up (barring any redevelopments --- which will be interesting to keep an eye on). Retail space in these towers will fill a real need in the neighborhood, like Baydo's Broadway blob, but unlike The Banks (imo).

The way these towers are designed, their retail will help give 25th more of a "high street" feel while keeping 5th a bit sleepier. The design of the podium privileges cars over people along 5th, and I wouldn't call that a forward-thinking or ambitious design. To me, that signals a few things: the economics of the project; Baydo's capabilities and priorities as a developer; and limitations in the city's zoning bylaws. On this last point, the podium of this development along 5th looks a lot like the podium of The Terrace condos a block south. The Terrace was built in 1980 though --- have the city's standards not changed in forty years?

[roryn1]

Completely agree with your comments Roquentin. As I live in this block, we crave some useful retail. I actually forget that my building has retail as they are two very quiet companies - orthodontist and a land surveyor (both still full of people during covid). Across from us within our neighbouring condos is a Chiropractor, medicine shop drug store, small grocer (with lots of selection!), one of the best Massages and facial therapist places, Small physical therapist, another small grocer, and two barber locations. All of that in the current 5 neighbouring buildings within a one block radius!

My personal asks for retail in this area?

1. A family doctor! We have very few family doctors downtown.
2. A school in walking distance!
3. A subway or equivalent not in Circle K - as it is borderline dangerous visiting either Circle K or 7/11 at many times of the day and night (walking or driving). The new Prairie donair shop on 25th and 2nd may have solved this ask of me though ha.
4. A nice restaurant would be nice - but not a requirement as the walk to 2nd ave’s a bountiful restaurants is a nice experience in itself - for the 4 months we can enjoy walking there.
5. A modern fitness - yes I know we have YMCA and YWCA downtown, but we lack a modern fitness studio like F45 or one of the latest fitness places that do group classes that focuses on group classes like HIIT. There’s Rise Strength Lab in the north end, but walking distance wise we have nada. Young people about to live in Baydo Tower want a walkable modern franchised group workout place!
6. A new private liquor store (the downtown public one will be closed soon with construction of the new library AND IT is tiny to start. Come on where’s our new downtown private liquor store?)

Notice how I didn’t put grocery store? Grocery delivery is becoming such a great thing that most downtowners - even older folks, will soon all be getting their groceries delivered. This is already the now situation in larger cities as psf space for a large grocer with plentiful selection is hard to do. Our current small grocers near 5th and 25th offer fruits and veggies.

[scotty c]

Originally Posted by roryn1

Completely agree with your comments Roquentin. As I live in this block, we crave some useful retail. I actually forget that my building has retail as they are two very quiet companies - orthodontist and a land surveyor (both still full of people during covid). Across from us within our neighbouring condos is a Chiropractor, medicine shop drug store, small grocer (with lots of selection!), one of the best Massages and facial therapist places, Small physical therapist, another small grocer, and two barber locations. All of that in the current 5 neighbouring buildings within a one block radius!

My personal asks for retail in this area?

1. A family doctor! We have very few family doctors downtown.
2. A school in walking distance!
3. A subway or equivalent not in Circle K - as it is borderline dangerous visiting either Circle K or 7/11 at many times of the day and night (walking or driving). The new Prairie donair shop on 25th and 2nd may have solved this ask of me though ha.
4. A nice restaurant would be nice - but not a requirement as the walk to 2nd ave’s a bountiful restaurants is a nice experience in itself - for the 4 months we can enjoy walking there.
5. A modern fitness - yes I know we have YMCA and YWCA downtown, but we lack a modern fitness studio like F45 or one of the latest fitness places that do group classes that focuses on group classes like HIIT. There’s Rise Strength Lab in the north end, but walking distance wise we have nada. Young people about to live in Baydo Tower want a walkable modern franchised group workout place!
6. A new private liquor store (the downtown public one will be closed soon with construction of the new library AND IT is tiny to start. Come on where’s our new downtown private liquor store?)

Notice how I didn’t put grocery store? Grocery delivery is becoming such a great thing that most downtowners - even older folks, will soon all be getting their groceries delivered. This is already the now situation in larger cities as psf space for a large grocer with plentiful selection is hard to do. Our current small grocers near 5th and 25th offer fruits and veggies.

There’s a HIIT studio about 3 blocks from there called Peak. It’s on 2nd Ave just North of 25th. It’s just beside the community clinic that has many family doctors (don’t think they are accepting new patients right now though).

[roryn1]

Peak a great new addition! Some of the other leading franchises that could get into downtown Saskatoon include:
1. Anytime Fitness
2. Planet Fitness
3. OrangeTheory
4. F45
5. Snap Fitness
6. 9Round
7. Golds Gym
8. Ilovekickboxing
9. RowHouse
10. 30 Min Hiit
11. Barry’s

And many more but those are some of the more popular ones that I think are in Calgary, Winnipeg, and Toronto that could make their way here. Some of those are already in our suburbs, but we need a walkable one downtown for residents and after/pre work downtowners!

Evolution Fitness - Motion Fitness’ competitor in Regina has a really nice gym in their downtown. Hopefully we see more competition to Motion, I go there and it is always packed. I hate having to leave downtown for working out, but YWCA/YMCA’s equipment is a lot older and they’re somehow more expensive.

[roryn1]

Yea that Community Clinic almost never is accepting patients - they need to expand or we need a new family clinic downtown. My doctor is technically all the way in willowgrove, but since that’s so far away i’ve started using Telus Health which is a mobile clinic service that you video chat with your doctor (they’ve been better doctors than my willowgrove doctors) and your prescription or referral is all automatically faxed. Finally our healthcare system is becoming streamlined I highly recommend it! There’s a revolution happening in the walk in clinic space similar to what’s changing with grocery deliveries.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Roquentin

I think it's true that not every new development needs to or should include commercial space. Retail bays might be out of place in a building like Escala, say.

I agree with this, but I do think that no new development should have a front door with three blank walls on the other side. Escala avoids this by integrating townhouses on the street level. These are especially common in downtown Vancouver and it makes the street scapes feel alive, safe and human scale.

At the same time, does anyone know the cost of having commercial bays sit vacant for a couple years? I understand that the initial construction cost may be higher. I imagine the main expense may be opportunity cost (main floor commercial displaces main floor amenities which may in turn eliminate a few units on the second floor).

[Roquentin]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I agree with this, but I do think that no new development should have a front door with three blank walls on the other side. Escala avoids this by integrating townhouses on the street level. These are especially common in downtown Vancouver and it makes the street scapes feel alive, safe and human scale.

I totally agree. Escala's townhouses are a nice direction for future, similar developments. I walked past the Shangri-La building (what a name) at Queen and 4th last night, and I couldn't help but think about what might have been. The ground floor's blank wall and vehicle ramp are quite the combo. It would be a shame if the same thing happened to the vacant lot across the street instead of building on the good things Queen St. has going for it. Townhouses would be great, and the strip seems to have solid demand for medical offices (if retail in that vicinity is reserved for 2nd Ave.). Missed opportunities leave their mark here for so long though, especially given the slow pace of local urban development.

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

At the same time, does anyone know the cost of having commercial bays sit vacant for a couple years? I understand that the initial construction cost may be higher. I imagine the main expense may be opportunity cost (main floor commercial displaces main floor amenities which may in turn eliminate a few units on the second floor).

I'm certainly not on an expert on this kind of thing at all (so please forgive me if what I'm about to say is simplistic or misinformed), but I used to live in the 2nd Avenue Lofts building, and I remember that the commercial tenants contributed significantly to the building's overall financial health. The building's financial commitments were offset by commercial rents, which helped keep condo fees lower than they might have otherwise been. I'm sure there's risk involved (for example, if your building's Fiat dealership moves out). I'd speculate that vacant commercial bays would contribute to increased costs for other tenants. For example, if Highpoint had been built, but the office floors of the podium had sat vacant for years, I'd imagine that the financial health of the building would really have suffered, affecting things like condo fees, reserve funds, special assessments for maintenance etc., and the finances of the property manager.

I guess it's a matter of balancing the risks and the rewards?

[Ricopedra]

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[Ricopedra]

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[roryn1]

This building has five times more public space than my building next door. We have none of this:
BBQ grills, meeting rooms, gym, games rooms, yoga rooms, dog park, community green spaces, bike storage room

My building next door has a dilapidated everything of that with no plans to upgrade until our building is emptied by this Baydo project - our board is completely run by out of town folks with zero tenants on the board as only rich folks clearly with too money as their investment has no been run down (the fire department recently told our building that it had the most fire violations in the province)... and rent is more expensive here than what Baydo is proposing.

People need to realize how run down the larger condos are next to Baydo’s project. If anything’s holding this neighborhood back, it’s the investors prospectively buying condos to be used as airbnb’s. No 1 River Landing seems to be barking up that alley soon too. Baydo’s is the first large project since 2007 (River Terrace construction) that’s going to change this.

It’s incredibly frustrating how people prospectively buy up 10+ units in these buildings and then completely forget about them. It’s incredibly frustrating that PR Developments (Remai’s) can hold on to a surface parking lot that tore down houses people lived in, as a prospective piece of investment, but for the next few decades will be used as a parking lot for city of saskatoon employees.

Sorry, investors that ruin our downtown really ^*#*{# me off haha

[Ricopedra]

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[Ricopedra]

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[Ricopedra]

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[phone]

Originally Posted by Ricopedra

Not a single local resident has posted a pic of this twin 25-story development besides roryn1, who isn't even from Saskatoon. And this is a construction-lover's forum? What a pathetic place to come to to be inspired. It's why the Saskatchewan Party rules Sask - everyone's too bored to give a shit.

These towers will greatly change the skyline from the north, expanding it from the east and west, also. Don't under-estimate them.

Pathetic? Seriously? roryn1 takes pictures because they have a birds eye view into the site. The project hasn't even broken ground level yet and the whole site is surrounded by fencing -- not much to take a picture of.

[905er]

maybe no one is posting any pics of the site because this project is shite!!

..we'll all just wait to see the finished product and hope to be pleasantly surprised.

[phone]

Originally Posted by 905er

maybe no one is posting any pics of the site because this project is shite!!

..we'll all just wait to see the finished product and hope to be pleasantly surprised.

It will be shite. There is no question. But at least it will bring a booster shot of added population downtown. Whether that's worth the cost is a matter of opinion.