TD Coliseum | ? | 4 fl | Under Construction

[woreg75]

Summed it up perfectly thistleclub..
Suppose all we have left is willing positive vibes towards the project.

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

Worst case, it'll be white corrugated aluminum panels that create a polebarn aesthetic. I'm really hoping that it ends up being glass, or it might just end up looking like Edmonton's Stanley A Milner Library.

I do like the black wave and the glass facade along the bottom, though. The black wave will probably be clad with matte black aluminum panels, similarly to Scotiabank Arena.

Two solutions were identified in 2016's FirstOntario Centre - Arena Renovation Study:

Option 1: replace existing cladding on York Blvd. and Bay Street sides only with new insulated metal panel system. Allow for custom colours as selected by Architect.

Option 2: replace existing cladding for entire façade with new metal panel system and Lucabond fascias as per exterior rendering and drawings. Allow for custom colours as selected by Architect.

In either case, it doesn't appear to have been included in the partial renovation.

[thistleclub]

Just realized what this was reminiscent of: Brisbin Brook Beynon Architects' 2012 design for Markham's GTA Centre.

[JakeLRS]

weren't we suppose to get a finalized masterplan on this project by the end of this year?

[SteelTown]

Deal for downtown Hamilton entertainment precinct said to be close

Scott Radley
https://www.thespec.com/news/council...-be-close.html

A deal between the city and the consortium planning to renovate and maintain FirstOntario Centre, the FirstOntario Concert Hall and the Hamilton Convention Centre is now close, both sides say.

Barring any unforeseen glitches, things should wrap up within the next couple months allowing for work to begin, according to Coun. Jason Farr, who represents Ward 2.

“My sense is we’ve dotted a lot of i’s and crossed a lot of t’s,” he says.

“We’re hopeful (and) optimistic that we will cross the finish line very soon,” PJ Mercanti, president of the Urban Precinct Entertainment Group (UPEG), said earlier this month, a position he echoed this week.

It has taken longer than expected to get here.

Back in the summer, UPEG was chosen by the city to be the group to handle the project but it was all riding on the completion of a master agreement between the sides. At that time, the city’s press release said that a deal would’ve already been reached by now and renovations would begin in the fall.

Alas, COVID got in the way.

“Life got kind of crazy so it just kind of delayed things,” Mercanti said a few weeks ago.

Why should this matter to you and why should you be hoping the two sides wrap things up with no catches or hang-ups? For reasons beyond simply wanting a shiny new — or renewed, at least — arena, concert hall and convention centre and some other development for the city core, that is?

Because, even though the work would be done with private money, the outcome will affect your taxes.

A year ago, the city’s capital budget included a long-range look at what we were going to have to spend to maintain and upgrade the three entertainment venues. It wasn’t pretty.

This year we were going to be on the hook for $11 million and change. Most of it for the arena, but $2.4 million for repaving of the square between the concert hall and the art gallery, and another $400,000 for replacing wood railings in that area. Plus another $168,000 to fix up the arena courtyard.

However, anticipating the completion of a deal that would take the responsibility for the buildings off the city’s hands, the entire thing was whittled down during budget discussions the other day to just $800,000 for typical “life-cycle renewals.”

If that original $11 million sounds like a lot, we’re barely getting started.

In 2022 we were going to be on the hook for $7.8 million. Jump to 2023 and it was $8.8 million. And then from 2024 to 2029 the budget called for $7.8 million, $5.8 million, $9.3 million, $9.2 million, $9.2 million and $9.2 million.

In case your calculator is broken, that’s a grand total of $78.1 million in less than a decade. Which could turn out to be more if unexpected issues arose.

“It’s an increasingly heavy burden on the taxpayers,” Farr says.

All of that is now off the books, assuming the deal happens. Which is why taxpayers should be rooting for smooth sailing.

If the deal were to fall apart now, the city would have to put those millions back in the budget, which you would cover through your property taxes. Failing that, the buildings might have to be shut down, Farr says.

“Or go back out to the market (to) other consortia who may be still interested,” he explains.

Yes, that is the third option. Don’t forget, the Vrancor Group had also come forward last summer to make a pitch for the project. But that would mean starting the process over. Which would take time, assuming it got done. In the meantime, the city could be spending more to maintain buildings it was actively trying to unload.

“If anything goes wrong with the mechanical systems or anything like that, the city is still on the hook,” says Rome D’Angelo, the city’s director of energy, fleet and facilities management.

At a time we’re scrambling for cash — and really, when are we not? — and planning to divest ourselves of this cash sponge anyway, far better to do so as quickly as possible. Before we have to spend a single dime more than is absolutely necessary.

[Boost the Hammer]

I hope a lot more info is forthcoming as to how the risk reward on this project works for us the taxpayers. Yes there are upkeeps that UPEG will assume but what does the city get.

UPEG seems more like a concept group vs a doer group.

Money has never been cheaper. Lets get a move on.

[craftbeerdad]

Maybe we can finally get an NHL team with these fixes? Not likely but it's fun to dream!

Remember when Balsillie tried to buy three NHL teams (including an eventual multiple Stanley Cup winner-Pittsburgh) and move them to Hamilton? If that jackass didn't get aggressive taking deposits before the sale of the Coyotes was approved, we would have had a team. Plus he'd have a lot more money left in the bank after RIM stock subsequently fell off the face of the earth (regardless of the recent WSB run).

For fun, here's a great quote from the LRT mayor himself:

In Hamilton, a disappointed Mayor Fred Eisenberger looked on the bright side, noting that even the league's experts said in court a team in Hamilton would quickly be a money-maker. "The good news in it for Hamilton is that all have agreed that hockey in southern Ontario is viable and that it would be a successful market for them to start working with," Eisenberger said

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

I bet Quebec City'll get a team before we do, their new area looks a beaut. They used to have a team, all that. But unless Victoria or Saskatoon get serious, I think we're next in line... whenever that is

[ScreamingViking]

NHL? I think there's a better chance Harry Stinson completes his next major project in the city.

Nice to see progress though. And Andlauer is getting impatient, though a redeveloped FOC is probably his best bet at new home in the region. But this isn't about him, and the value of that arena goes far beyond a hockey tenant. While it would be a shame to lose the Bulldogs if this project festers, I think a replacement team would be found fairly easily.

[drpgq]

I'm wondering what Covid has done to the budget for Copps and Hamilton Place. With no events is that better for the city? A lot worse?

[ericmacm]

Originally Posted by craftbeerdad

Maybe we can finally get an NHL team with these fixes? Not likely but it's fun to dream!

Remember when Balsillie tried to buy three NHL teams (including an eventual multiple Stanley Cup winner-Pittsburgh) and move them to Hamilton? If that jackass didn't get aggressive taking deposits before the sale of the Coyotes was approved, we would have had a team. Plus he'd have a lot more money left in the bank after RIM stock subsequently fell off the face of the earth (regardless of the recent WSB run).

It won't happen until Quebec and Houston are both taken care of, be it through expansion or relocation. I doubt NHL 34 will happen for a long time. The NHL will eventually need new locations for relocation threats once those two places get teams, and it's not outrageous to suggest that Hamilton could be on that list, considering the numerous times it's been in the running for a potential expansion or relocation.

Hamilton is the next biggest CMA in Canada after Quebec, beating out KW by about 200,000 people, so it's realistically the only remaining place in Canada that could hypothetically take on a team, barring a second Toronto team.

[ScreamingViking]

There are too many "large enough" US metros that would be in line before a Canadian one ever gets a sniff at a potential NHL team, most much bigger than Hamilton (or Quebec City for that matter). They suit Bettman's dream of league success... a dream where franchise profitability doesn't seem to matter.

IMO the next (and likely last) new Canadian team will be close to the Toronto border. Appease MLSE with some guarantees of constant flow of tribute moneys, and that's that.

But Hamilton needs a facility that is right-sized for a variety of uses. Smaller and intimate enough for OHL or AHL crowds and more modest concerts. Big enough for the large events a CMA this size commands. If this group can pull that off, while taking burden off the tax base, then this will have all been very worthwhile.

[Innsertnamehere]

Hamilton doesn’t need a 20,000 seat arena, agreed. A 10-15k facility is more useful and “right sized”, and there isn’t anything wrong with that. We sit right in the middle of two NHL markets. A certain chunk of sports entertainment is always going to get drawn to those cities instead. GO is busy right to Aldershot after a Jays game for a reason.

As a new Hamiltonian I fully expect to take advantage of being close to Buffalo and it’s NHL and NFL team once covid is over. NHL games I can actually afford and NFL, something not available in Toronto.

[ScreamingViking]

I meant "right-sized" in terms of regular use of a sectioned-off lower bowl for most minor/junior league sporting events that don't need the full capacity, with the option of opening the upper level for bigger ones like concerts or tournament finals.

If this group can renovate the arena with a workable design that provides the intimacy craved for the first use but allows for the second, then they'll have done well. Seating capacity of both levels will probably end up being lower anyway, if they plan to add more boxes and put larger seats in the stands (I haven't been to the arena in a while, but I recall feeling cramped; whereas at THF the seats are more generous)

More amenities are needed too, but they don't need to be gold-plated.

[TheRitsman]

Do we know when this may start? I know the facility is being used as a vaccination site, but during the pandemic would be the best time to start on this as it will likely take years of closure to renovate the arena.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

Do we know when this may start? I know the facility is being used as a vaccination site, but during the pandemic would be the best time to start on this as it will likely take years of closure to renovate the arena.

They are still in the process of closing on the agreement with the developer - then a while of design and technical approvals, lining up financing, etc.

My guess is 2023 at the earliest.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

They are still in the process of closing on the agreement with the developer - then a while of design and technical approvals, lining up financing, etc.

My guess is 2023 at the earliest.

How long do we think First Ontario Centre will be closed for?

[Boost the Hammer]

Me thinks that this group is either cash poor or more likely looking for everyone else's money to make this happen.

Just a note on CMA. The CMA stuff is just more governmental bureaucratic BS chicanery.

Compare Hamiltons CMA area to that of Winnipeg, Ottawa and QC. Each of those count numbers in areas at minimum 2.5 times the size of Hamiltons up to over 4 times the size in Winnipeg and Ottawa.

Not an apples to apples comparison at all.

It can rightly be argued that Hamilton is the 5th or 6th largest city in the country and should get the funding based on that. Those other CMAs extend up to 40k from the downtown, whereas Hamilton only extends 20k.

Fyi Caledonia and Brantford not considered in Hamiltons CMA.???

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by Boost the Hammer

Me thinks that this group is either cash poor or more likely looking for everyone else's money to make this happen.

Just a note on CMA. The CMA stuff is just more governmental bureaucratic BS chicanery.

Compare Hamiltons CMA area to that of Winnipeg, Ottawa and QC. Each of those count numbers in areas at minimum 2.5 times the size of Hamiltons up to over 4 times the size in Winnipeg and Ottawa.

Not an apples to apples comparison at all.

It can rightly be argued that Hamilton is the 5th or 6th largest city in the country and should get the funding based on that. Those other CMAs extend up to 40k from the downtown, whereas Hamilton only extends 20k.

Fyi Caledonia and Brantford not considered in Hamiltons CMA.???

I've been saying this since I moved here. There seems to be a coordinated effort to put Hamilton down. It's councillors don't want to be seen as a real city, the province ignores us like we're Grimsby or something, the federal government barely knows we're here. The city of Hamilton is a 600,000 person city with a real CMA of over 1.5 million people.

[Innsertnamehere]

Hamilton’s problem is that it’s so close to the Toronto CMA that the commuter sheds blend together a lot.

People living in western Burlington are very much tied to Hamilton but people in eastern Burlington are arguably more tied to the GTA, for example.

Caledonia would be in the CMA if it was an independent municipality. Because Haldimand county is a single tier municipality, it technically doesn’t qualify under the CMA calculation methods. To be in a certain CMA, you need to meet a minimum % of people commuting to a central municipality (Hamilton). Caledonia meets this, but because Haldimand County includes areas like Dunnville, etc, which are much further away, the county as a whole does not.

Brantford I don’t believe meets the commuter shed requirements, even if it wasn’t its own independent CMA. And honestly i think it’s independent enough to qualify as it’s own city. It’s close that people go between the two frequently, but they effectively still act as independent cities.

Honestly I think Hamilton’s CMA number is pretty accurate, maybe short a bit because of Caledonia and/or Beamsville not being in it, but also inflated a bit as it includes western Burlington which is really more tied to Toronto.

If anything Hamilton should just be a part of the GTA metro area though. It’s ultimately still very closely tied to the GTA, much more so than areas like Kitchener / Guelph or Peterborough. It’s not as extreme as Oshawa is which is solidly just a Toronto suburb at this point despite having its own CMA, but it’s close.