Most Canadian / Least Canadian

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Fewer than half of immigrants to Montreal are francophone, no?

Probably, though how you define francophone can be complicated. Is a Haitian Creole speaker a francophone or not? Their native language is not French, but they start using French as soon as the get off the plane at Dorval.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

That's very astute. There's Canadian trashy tourism and there's American trashy tourism, and Niagara Falls, Ontario has a very trashy American tourist vibe.

Another thing I notice every time I'm there is the proliferation of license plates from southern US states that I rarely see in the rest of Canada. I always see license plates from states like Kentucky, Tennessee, Missouri, South Carolina - I don't think I've ever seen plates from those states in the GTA or elsewhere in Canada. This means that Americans from those places step foot into Canada to view the Falls and then cross back into the US again.

What states do you see most in the GTA? I see the big eastern seaboard states (NY, NJ, Florida) often or just bigger, more big-city states, but occasionally others (I will say southern states are rarer in general in the GTA, and probably Canada in general).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by logan5

Isn’t there a rule for immigrants though, that you have to live in an assigned city for at least a year? So I imagine a Chinese immigrant living in Montreal is likely to move to Toronto or Vancouver after their required time in Montreal is done.

I have seen very very few Asians of any sort and in Montreal

You are correct that some immigrants to Montreal (probably more Asians than other groups) move on to other parts of Canada. And there are no restrictions AFAIK.

In terms of population, there are about 100,000 South Asians in Montreal, and about 200,000 people with origins in Eastern Asia (mostly Chinese and Vietnamese).

Out of a population of 4 million people.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Probably, though how you define francophone can be complicated. Is a Haitian Creole speaker a francophone or not? Their native language is not French, but they start using French as soon as the get off the plane at Dorval.

As much of a francophone as a speaker of Jamaican Patois is an anglophone.

On that note, it's funny how a French term ("Patois") is used to describe an Anglophone Creole in the Caribbean with little French influence itself. Creole itself is also borrowed into English from French as a term, though it has Spanish/Portuguese origins as a word.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by ue

That's a good point. Also, on the touristy areas of Niagara, there's something to the specific aesthetic of Clifton Hill/Fallsview in the types of tourist traps, the chains, the garishness, the cheapness that make it feel like a very stereotypical hick American tourist trap town, like Branson, Missouri or Wall, South Dakota.

Niagara Falls On was smart and Clifton Hill from it's start has been set up to entertain the out of towner when they are done looking at the falls. Aside from this year for obvious reasons their # 1 tourist on weekends comes from the other side of the border. A huge number of Young people from both sides who think chain restaurants a quality places to eat lol.


Here is Clifton House built in 1833. It was marketed to Americans because at that time Buffallo was a booming city with lots of money. Toronto was still a fairly small city.
Source:https://www.cliftonhill.com



She started off classy and changed with the times. Now you can shoot Zombies.
Source:https://www.cliftonhill.com

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Probably, though how you define francophone can be complicated. Is a Haitian Creole speaker a francophone or not? Their native language is not French, but they start using French as soon as the get off the plane at Dorval.

In that specific case, I would have said “yes”. Where it might get greyer might be the case of NAfricans and sub-Saharan Africans, who might have less-than-native-speaker abilities in French. But my understanding was that a majority of newcomers had limited to no French. Perhaps that includes refugee applicants?

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

What states do you see most in the GTA? I see the big eastern seaboard states (NY, NJ, Florida) often or just bigger, more big-city states, but occasionally others (I will say southern states are rarer in general in the GTA, and probably Canada in general).

In the pre-Covid days, my anecdotal observation was that the frequency of US license plates driving around the GTA went (in decreasing order):

NY
Michigan
Pennsylvania
Massachussetts
Ohio
Florida
...
the rest.

But the rest would include places like California, Illinois, Minnesota, Texas, all of the Northeastern & New England states, Georgia. Often Caribana would be a good time to see these.

But then there were the states I've never seen, which is why Niagara Falls sticks out:

Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Tennessee, Kentucky. Mostly stuff in the south. The Americans have more memorable-looking license plates than we do, but I can't even conjure up what those license plates look like.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

In that specific case, I would have said “yes”. Where it might get greyer might be the case of NAfricans and sub-Saharan Africans, who might have less-than-native-speaker abilities in French. But my understanding was that a majority of newcomers had limited to no French. Perhaps that includes refugee applicants?

Depends on if there's a spectrum-like perception of "francophone-ness".

People have come up with models like this for English (e.g. the inner circle, like Brits, Canucks, Yanks who define the base and core of the English-speaking world, the outer circle of English-speakers who speak English but may not necessarily be native-speakers or live in English-dominated spaces if educated, like Nigeria or India, and also speakers of English-based creoles like Jamaica, until you get to the "expanding circle" in places like China that lack these historic ties but are still learning English due to globalization).



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Englishes

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

In the pre-Covid days, my anecdotal observation was that the frequency of US license plates driving around the GTA went (in decreasing order):

NY
Michigan
Pennsylvania
Massachussetts
Ohio
Florida
...
the rest.

But the rest would include places like California, Illinois, Minnesota, Texas, all of the Northeastern & New England states, Georgia. Often Caribana would be a good time to see these.

But then there were the states I've never seen, which is why Niagara Falls sticks out:

Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Tennessee, Kentucky. Mostly stuff in the south. The Americans have more memorable-looking license plates than we do, but I can't even conjure up what those license plates look like.

I might put Texas and California higher on the list. You see them in K-W and Ottawa as well - I assume because of high tech connections.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

In the pre-Covid days, my anecdotal observation was that the frequency of US license plates driving around the GTA went (in decreasing order):

NY
Michigan
Pennsylvania
Massachussetts
Ohio
Florida
...
the rest.

But the rest would include places like California, Illinois, Minnesota, Texas, all of the Northeastern & New England states, Georgia. Often Caribana would be a good time to see these.

But then there were the states I've never seen, which is why Niagara Falls sticks out:

Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Tennessee, Kentucky. Mostly stuff in the south. The Americans have more memorable-looking license plates than we do, but I can't even conjure up what those license plates look like.

Might have a correlation with % of people owning a passport (especially post 2000s), and also possibly percentage of people with relatives in Canada? I think it's also curious that the Midwest (except Michigan) is less tied to Ontario than the latitudinally similar points on the "eastern seaboard" despite the geographical commonality as the great lakes region, so places like Ohio, Illinois are less common than places like Penn. or Mass.

My intuition seems to be more cross-movent between GTA and the east coast than the midwest in both directions (though what part of that is the midwest being more "insular" outside the border areas, vs. the eastern seaboard being more "cosmopolitan" and other factors like the east coast being the center of finance/media/power stateside, though California is no slouch).

[hipster duck]

^The thing is that the people from those southern states who visit Niagara Falls, Ontario obviously have a passport. What's interesting is that once they come over, they seemingly just cross back over again. It's as if they're on a cross-USA trip and the only reason they brought their passport was to see the Falls from the Canadian side.

I don't even see those plates on the QEW between Hamilton and Niagara, which is a route some Americans take if they're going from Michigan to Upstate NY. The trip through Ohio is a bit of a detour and is also tolled.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I might put Texas and California higher on the list. You see them in K-W and Ottawa as well - I assume because of high tech connections.

K-W and the American tech scene are getting more and more tied.

There are the occasional quips about how Waterloo's a feeder school/brain drain pipeline to Silicon Valley, but it's cool to see growth in the other direction.

One of the noted trends in human migration is that every migration generates a countermigration (even if small, for instance "returnees" or diaspora links).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_...y_of_migration

"He established a theory of human migration in the 1880s that still forms the basis for modern migration theory.

The following was a standard list after Ravenstein's (1834–1913) proposal in the 1880s. The theories are as follows:

Every migration flow generates a return or counter-migration.
The majority of migrants move a short distance.
Migrants who move longer distances tend to choose major sources of economic activity.
Urban residents are often less migratory than inhabitants of rural areas.
Families are less likely to make international moves than young adults.
Most migrants are adults.
Large towns grow by migration rather than natural population growth.
More long distance migrants are male.
More long distance migrants are adult individuals rather than families with children."

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

^The thing is that the people from those southern states who visit Niagara Falls, Ontario obviously have a passport. What's interesting is that once they come over, they seemingly just cross back over again. It's as if they're on a cross-USA trip and the only reason they brought their passport was to see the Falls from the Canadian side.

I don't even see those plates on the QEW between Hamilton and Niagara, which is a route some Americans take if they're going from Michigan to Upstate NY. The trip through Ohio is a bit of a detour and is also tolled.

It's interesting to consider what routes these southerners take. On a map, it's curious how "close" southern Ontario is to the American South/Appalachia even though culturally it seems so distant.

West Virginia's northern end is so close to the Canadian border, even though it's a state lacking big cities, and is chided as being one of the least "cosmopolitan" states.

I wonder what compels someone to want to journey up to Canada to Niagara Falls but not want to see Canada's largest city, even if it's just a couple hours more of a drive.

[benp]

Originally Posted by rousseau

No they don't. If there are any, they're outliers. People in Western New York don't pay any attention to Canada. They might go to the odd Broadway-style show in Toronto because it's closer, though.


No it doesn't. You look at a street like this...

https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.90708...7i13312!8i6656

...and you know that you're in the Midwestern US, and that nowhere in Canada looks like this at all.

Just comparing built environment, how about a couple of blocks down from your example, same street:
https://goo.gl/maps/7cVhrdN6XtErp6mB8

Now Hamilton:
https://goo.gl/maps/69VURpgX1MtJa9Vi8

There is a lot of similarity among Great Lakes cities, on both sides of the border. This is just one example.

If you are strictly referring to some population loss aspects between the US and Canada, that's different. But FYI the street view of the area you provided is now 9 years old, and it has seen quite a bit of gentrification since that time.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You are correct that some immigrants to Montreal (probably more Asians than other groups) move on to other parts of Canada. And there are no restrictions AFAIK.

In terms of population, there are about 100,000 South Asians in Montreal, and about 200,000 people with origins in Eastern Asia (mostly Chinese and Vietnamese).

Out of a population of 4 million people.

Not arguing that Montreal isn't diverse, but this piece of information is interesting. Immigrants are certainly dishonest about their intentions of living in Quebec.

How Are Provinces Used as A Back Door to Canada?

This has been an ongoing challenge for some of the provinces that are being used by prospective applicants, who do not otherwise qualify for admission under the Federal Skilled Worker Program, as a “back door entry” to Canada.

Indeed, this has been a serious challenge facing Quebec which has direct authority to select economic immigrants representing approximately 20 percent of total admissions to Canada. This is by far the most of any province.

Historically, and as empirical data confirms, the province of Quebec retains only a fraction of the applicants it actually approves.

Many applicants often decide to forego their initial intention to settle in Quebec and elect to settle elsewhere.

This is especially the case under the Quebec Immigrant Investor Program (QIIP) which has dominated the Canadian market of investment-based immigration.

For other provinces including Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island which promote their own skilled worker programs, the retention of immigrants remains an ongoing challenge for provincial policymakers.

https://www.immigration.ca/provincia...here-in-canada

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by logan5

Not arguing that Montreal isn't diverse, but this piece of information is interesting. Immigrants are certainly dishonest about their intentions of living in Quebec.



https://www.immigration.ca/provincia...here-in-canada

Somewhere there's a parallel to be made about whether immigrants "really" want to move to Quebec as opposed to use it as a stepping stone to the rest of (English-speaking) Canada (or use smaller provinces as stepping stones to say big cities like Toronto and Vancouver).

and

Immigrants moving to Canada being questioned if they "really" like Canada or want to use it as a stepping stone to the US.

[Capsicum]

Also does it really matter if a person/family/group/community wanted to become part of a nation/region/province/city at the start or never did intend to stay, if eventually they do settle down and put down roots etc.

After all, plenty of people who never wanted to become *insert part of group/nation/place* eventually did and now see themselves as undeniable participants in their own societies, ranging from conquered people like Native Americans/First Nations becoming part of or at least living within the nation of the colonizers, conquered Francophones not wanting to become part of the same nation as English-speaking Brits prior to Canada's founding, African Americans' ancestors never wanting to go to a distant land against their will, even some refugees who longed to go back to their home country but never returned so eventually put down roots in the new country with their kids having never known the "old country", or well, even some rich expat who wanted to return home but found true love and married some local so now they have kids here. Some would probably not see all these disparate scenarios as appropriate analogies but they all have something in common which is even if the original intent was never to stay/belong in a place, now they do and once they belong, they have equal claim to belonging as those who voluntarily came and intended it to be their final destination/goal all along.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Somewhere there's a parallel to be made about whether immigrants "really" want to move to Quebec as opposed to use it as a stepping stone to the rest of (English-speaking) Canada (or use smaller provinces as stepping stones to say big cities like Toronto and Vancouver).

and

Immigrants moving to Canada being questioned if they "really" like Canada or want to use it as a stepping stone to the US.

Is the percentage of Canadian LIs who subsequently emigrate to the USA very high? It’s not something that gets much attention, istm.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

West Virginia's northern end is so close to the Canadian border, even though it's a state lacking big cities, and is chided as being one of the least "cosmopolitan" states.

It's also one of the few states with a declining population over the past decade, down -3.3% in the past ten years.

Originally Posted by Capsicum

I wonder what compels someone to want to journey up to Canada to Niagara Falls but not want to see Canada's largest city, even if it's just a couple hours more of a drive.

Probably a lack of interest in cities as a whole. As you've said, WV is a very uncosmopolitan, and for a few at least that's probably a choice made.

[softee]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

In the pre-Covid days, my anecdotal observation was that the frequency of US license plates driving around the GTA went (in decreasing order):

NY
Michigan
Pennsylvania
Massachussetts
Ohio
Florida
...
the rest.

I see lots of New Jersey plates in Toronto, seemed to be right up there with Michigan and Pennsylvania.

Of course nothing else comes even close to the number of NY Plates, they are almost ubiquitous during tourist season.