VIA Rail

[esquire]

^ Man, seeing those old blue and yellow VIA cars gives me massive pangs of nostalgia.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

After VIA took over the Atlantic Ltd and extended it through to Halifax.....VIA built a new station downtown (near the Harbour Station Arena)....then built another station there just before the Atlantic was discontinued in Dec 1994. It's now the Maritime Bus Depot.

Yep, a pretty obvious location for a renewed station if rail service ever returns to the city.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J81

If you put the Ocean on the NTR and bypass all of the communities you just mentioned it will kill that train. People on this forum don’t understand how much of the Oceans business comes from those communities. It would be great if we had daily service with route alternating from the NTR to the ICR but thats a pipe dream. The problem with the NTR is there is literally nothing but woods for 160 miles between Moncton and Plaster Rock aside from tiny little Chipman. The closest the train comes to Fredericton is at McGivney which is a 40 minute drive. After that you have Grand Falls and Edmundston. Once you leave NB and into Quebec there isnt a population center until you hit La Pocatiere. Not a lot of business opportunities for the train through there as you can see.

The Ocean needs to stay where it is. If the track got fixed and that ridiculous stop at St Foy got moved back out to Charny it would get the arrival time into Moncton back to around 10-1030 where it always used to be. You’d be in Halifax by 4. I doubt itll ever happen though.

Currently the Ocean runs every 2 days. What might work well is that it runs every day, but alternates between the 2 routes. Then you still have the service to the communities between Matapedia and Moncton if the Gaspe was running. Even better, run the Gaspe alternate days too, then only Matapedia -Moncton and Riviere Du Loup-Moncton are alternate days.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Yep, a pretty obvious location for a renewed station if rail service ever returns to the city.

Yup...and that was the location of the original 'Union Station' downtown.

When Union Station was demolished in the early '70s for the new Saint John Thruway....CP built their new station out in the Dever Rd Yard in the west end of the city.....and CN built their new station (pictured above) out on Rothesay Ave on the east side. If you wanted to connect between CP and CN trains.....it was a 10 km taxi ride!

[Aylmer]

All VIA trains are cancelled across the country with CN halting operations. This can only end in tears.

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

All VIA trains are cancelled across the country with CN halting operations. This can only end in tears.

What it should end in is jail time for those who are obstructing the trains.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

All VIA trains are cancelled across the country with CN halting operations. This can only end in tears.

Shit this is bad.

[J81]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Currently the Ocean runs every 2 days. What might work well is that it runs every day, but alternates between the 2 routes. Then you still have the service to the communities between Matapedia and Moncton if the Gaspe was running. Even better, run the Gaspe alternate days too, then only Matapedia -Moncton and Riviere Du Loup-Moncton are alternate days.

Have to leave the ocean on the northern route. It wont work on the NTR. An interesting concept though would be to run a day train between QC and Halifax down the NTR as sort of an express train. Leave QC at 7am and be in Halifax 12hours later. Could be done with a push/pull consist.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by lubicon

What it should end in is jail time for those who are obstructing the trains.

And charge them for their economic impacts.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by lubicon

What it should end in is jail time for those who are obstructing the trains.

Originally Posted by p_xavier

And charge them for their economic impacts.

Great to see how many legal experts we have in this forum...

“Jail time” depends on how the judges interpret the Criminal Code, whereas the amount of damages to be recovered depends on what assets can be identified and seized from the individuals which were personally involved. In both cases, I would neither anticipate the punishment to be anywhere near the level you seem to expect nor to deter future protests.

This is an issue which needs to be addressed on a political level, by assisting the First Nation communities to develop their own formalized process to give or refuse consent on these kind of any infrastructure projects affecting their territories, preferably including their own legal system, maybe with an arbitration court consisting of judges appointed by First Nations leaders and by the government. But we shouldn’t forget that it was white men like us who destroyed the very conflict-resolution structures within the First Nations communities, for the lack of which we now reproach them:

[...]

Rules and rituals have been passed down through songs, stories and dances.

Prior to colonization, there would have been well-understood mechanisms to resolve disputes such as the proposed pipeline, which crosses multiple house territories and has potential impact on fish, game and forests.

Over time, those mechanisms weakened, under assault from a government-imposed band and council system to which industry and government gravitated, Prof. Borrows said.

With title unresolved, hereditary chiefs have tried to engage with the federal and B.C. governments on the pipeline issue.

[...]

The Wet’suwet’en hereditary system has been outlined in several court proceedings, including Delgamuukw. The case, often referred to as Delgamuukw-Gisday’wa after the main chiefs in question, involved claims to separate portions of land totalling 58,000 square kilometres in British Columbia.

The case is renowned for its length, complexity and impact. The trial heard from 61 witnesses, many of whom spoke in their own language and required translators. Seventy-one chiefs claimed 133 separate territories.

In 1991, a B.C. Supreme Court judge ruled Gitxsan and Wet’suwet’en rights had been extinguished at the time of Confederation. The case went through the B.C. Court of Appeal and ultimately to the Supreme Court of Canada, which in a landmark 1997 decision, confirmed Indigenous title exists in B.C. but said a new trial would be required to settle the claims. A new trial has not been held.

But Delgamuukw resonates today, underscoring hereditary chiefs’ emphasis that traditional territory has never been ceded.

[...]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/b...em-coastal-gaslink-pipeline-protests-bc/ (Excellent article, which I already posted on Urban Toronto and which is a comprehensive guide to the current protests)

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Great to see how many legal experts we have in this forum...

“Jail time” depends on how the judges interpret the Criminal Code, whereas the amount of damages to be recovered depends on what assets can be identified and seized from the individuals which were personally involved. In both cases, I would neither anticipate the punishment to be anywhere near the level you seem to expect nor to deter future protests.

This is an issue which needs to be addressed on a political level, by assisting the First Nation communities to develop their own formalized process to give or refuse consent on these kind of any infrastructure projects affecting their territories, preferably including their own legal system, maybe with an arbitration court consisting of judges appointed by First Nations leaders and by the government. But we shouldn’t forget that it was white men like us who destroyed the very conflict-resolution structures within the First Nations communities, for the lack of which we now reproach them:


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/b...em-coastal-gaslink-pipeline-protests-bc/ (Excellent article, which I already posted on Urban Toronto and which is a comprehensive guide to the current protests)

Hearing this conversation makes me glad I did not turn down status.

If this country is getting screwed over atleast I get something out of it.


They close my thread because I call it terrorism but I not sure what else you can call it when you cut the country transit system off.

Maybe economic terrorism?

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

Hearing this conversation makes me glad I did not turn down status.

If this country is getting screwed over atleast I get something out of it.


They close my thread because I call it terrorism but I not sure what else you can call it when you cut the country transit system off.

Maybe economic terrorism?

What about “Civil disobedience” or “peaceful (though illegal) protest”? Acting against the law and ignoring court orders does not satisfy any definition of “violence” or even “terrorism”, but you have already abundantly demonstrated in your little train wreck thread that you are completely immune against acknowledging any definitions of the terms you use so grotesquely inappropriately. You may now go into a different forum and spew your hatred there...

[Metro-One]

Maybe high jacking is a better term?

This is getting silly.

Given all the separate individual claims, many of them overlapping and competing, and the in fighting between the elected councils and heredity chiefs, this kind of displays that maybe the traditional native form of governance is not compatible with the modern world.

Seriously, all those involved did their due diligence and worked with all 20 councils representing all affected tribes to meet an agreement regarding the project just for this bullshit to erupt.

WCE in Vancouver closed today too.

What a confused protest.

We are against pipelines! So now we are preventing people to commute by rail, causing them to drive instead?????????

SJWs may be the loudest but I can guarantee you that the vast majority have a limited patience for such protests, especially those who have moved on beyond campus life.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J81

Have to leave the ocean on the northern route. It wont work on the NTR. An interesting concept though would be to run a day train between QC and Halifax down the NTR as sort of an express train. Leave QC at 7am and be in Halifax 12hours later. Could be done with a push/pull consist.

Why would it not work alternating from one to the other, yet it would work as an express?

Leave the current Ocean as is. On the days it does not run, run this one. Call it Atlantic.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Maybe high jacking is a better term?

This is getting silly.

Given all the separate individual claims, many of them overlapping and competing, and the in fighting between the elected councils and heredity chiefs, this kind of displays that maybe the traditional native form of governance is not compatible with the modern world.

Seriously, all those involved did their due diligence and worked with all 20 councils representing all affected tribes to meet an agreement regarding the project just for this bullshit to erupt.

“Highjacking” is certainly a more appropriate term (though without taking anyone physically hostage), but I would like to invite you to read the Globe&Mail article I posted 5 posts further up, as it explains quite well why the First Nations’ inability to resolve this conflict by finding an internal consensus is less the fault of their culture, than of the colonizers’ successful attempts to eradicate that culture.

Also, one could argue that rather than reproaching people (who’s ancestors lived here for countless generations before the colonizers arrived) for not adapting to the customs and way of life of the new-arrivals, we should question why the colonizers didn’t screen the natives and their traditions and culture better before deciding to settle here. I immigrated to Canada 7 years ago and I of course never expected myself (let alone: the people around me) to live here under the same rules, tradition, culture, religion or language as in my native Germany, so why would anyone defend (even implicitly) such an attitude amongst the so-called “founding fathers” of this country?

To be clear: the blockages absolutely suck for every employee or passenger of VIA Rail, but being an employee myself doesn’t stop me from acknowledging that the protestors may have a valid point, which they most probably could never make heard within the means the law (or the courts) allow. It’s not much different than workers going on strike: it doesn’t achieve much until it starts to actually hurt the employers’ customers and (unfortunately) inevitably also the general public. It’s therefore the responsibility of lawmakers, judges and police leaders (i.e. the legislative, judicature and executive powers of the state) to weigh the interests of the protestors (to be heard and to create pressure) against those of the public (to live their day-to-day lives un-inconvenienced by these protests) and it certainly goes beyond the scope of this thread (or even forum) to discuss where to draw the line...

That said, I desperately hope that the conflict gets resolved within the next days, as VIA can’t fulfill its mandate to serve this Nation (which is its only justification to depend on taxpayer money) if it doesn’t have track access to operate its passenger trains and a railroad which doesn’t operate any trains ceases to be a railroad...

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

“Highjacking” is certainly a more appropriate term, but I would like to invite you to read the Globe&Mail article I posted 5 posts further up, as it explains quite well why the First Nations’ inability to resolve this conflict by finding an internal consensus is not a fault of their culture, but of the colonizers’ attempt to eradicate that culture.

Also, one could argue that rather than reproaching people (who’s ancestors lived here for countless generations before the colonizers arrived) for not adapting to the customs and way of life of the new-arrivals, we should question why the colonizers didn’t screen the natives and their traditions and culture better before deciding to settle here. I immigrated to Canada 7 years ago and I of course never expected myself (let alone: the people around me) to live here under the same rules, tradition, culture, religion or language as in my native Germany, so why would anyone defend (even implicitly) such an attitude amongst the so-called “founding fathers” of this country?

To be clear: the blockages absolutely suck for every employee or passenger of VIA Rail, but being an employee myself doesn’t stop me from acknowledging that the protestors may have a valid point, which they most probably could never make heard with entirely legal means. It’s like workers going on strike: it doesn’t achieve much until it starts to actually hurt the employers’ customers and (unfortunately) inevitably also the general public. It’s therefore the responsibility of lawmakers, judges and police leaders (i.e. the legislative, judicature and executive powers of the state) to weigh the interests of the protestors (to be heard and to create pressure) and those of the public (to live their day-to-day lives un-inconvenienced by these protests) and it certainly goes beyond the scope of this thread (or even forum) to discuss where to draw the line...

That said, I desperately hope that the conflict gets resolved within the next days, as VIA can’t fulfill its mandate to serve this Nation (which funds it with taxpayer money) if it doesn’t have track access to operate its passenger trains and a railroad which doesn’t operate is no longer a railroad...

This mess will not end well for anyone.
Reconciliation is dead, unless there is no pipeline. I predict the pipeline will happen as if they don't, they will further force western alienation to happen.

I predict that likely next week, the PM will do something similar that his father did and round up all the protestors. That will end reconciliation.

The other option is to cancel that pipeline, angering 2 provinces that need the revenue from oil. Dong that would have been the same if Harper had not bailed out the companies during the 2008 recession. Rounding up the protestors is less of a political suicide then cancelling a pipeline.

This will get worse before it gets better.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

What about “Civil disobedience” or “peaceful (though illegal) protest”? Acting against the law and ignoring court orders does not satisfy any definition of “violence” or even “terrorism”, but you have already abundantly demonstrated in your little train wreck thread that you are completely immune against acknowledging any definitions of the terms you use so grotesquely inappropriately. You may now go into a different forum and spew your hatred there...

Well come up with a better term.

This is a disruption of a billion dollar piece of Canada's infrastructure.

"civil disobedience" seems highly inappropriate.

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

demonstrated in your little train wreck thread[/URL] that you are completely immune against acknowledging any definitions of the terms you use so grotesquely inappropriately. You may now go into a different forum and spew your hatred there...

Not sure it was a train wreck seems quite clear to me that people panic because I'm unleashing the elephant in the room.


You have a group of people who are sabotaging Canadian infrastructure.

The kind of infrastructure that is suppose to fight climate change.

This pretty much nullifies the notion that this has anything to do with climate change.

So what are we left with.

People want to attack working class Albertans.


And they do so by putting people in my status category as exempt from the law.

So not only is this is a war on the working class, your setting a precedent that the rule of law does not stand on people with status.

This is like 15 different variants of wrong, I can't be surprised.

If this isn't an example of extreme leftist values I don't know what is.

It's an attack on the working class, the environment, and it devalues the ability of aboriginal peoples to be seen as equal.


And the response I get is that "it's complicated" or that I'm full of hate.

The reality is this brand of politics is supported by people who literally do not value logic. Not to say these people aren't rational, but rationality and logic are not the same thing.

If your rationality is so incapable of seeing very basic truths.

I.e. all people are equal, some people being more equal than others doesn't relate to logic.

I.e. we're gonna attack a pipeline which will has almost no affect on global energy consumption in order "save the environment".

In the process the direct benefactors of this policies are government in Eurasia/Middle who treat women like 2x cows, hate gays and are blatantly antisemitic.

This is the definition of thinking that is a product of rationality without the usage of logic.

It all makes sense if you aren't prioritizing your values by logical connectives but it is a deck of cards.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

[...]

Blablabla, whatever, Troll!

Please move your belligerent monologues somewhere else, so that we can return to discussing the topic at hand.

Thank you and have a great evening!

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

inability to resolve this conflict by finding an internal consensus is less the fault of their culture, than of the colonizers’ successful attempts to eradicate that culture.

This just sounds patronizing.

There is no such thing as "their culture". Native peoples are individuals, who are suppose to exist on equal terms with everyone else.

What is so incredibly bizarre is that you're blaming some past group of people of wronging "them".

By putting them in the "other" category with such rhetoric you're reinforcing the damage done and you aren't even aware of it.

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Also, one could argue that rather than reproaching people (who’s ancestors lived here for countless generations before the colonizers arrived) for not adapting to the customs and way of life of the new-arrivals,

I have no idea why you reinforce ancestral claims. This seems like the murderous doctrine of the modern nationalistic left. We know exactly where ethnic guilt trips end up. Rwanada, Palenstine, Yugoslavia, etc informs us of exactly what happens.

The disgusting part is people know this and they don't care, it is a direct result of them being unable to see native people as true equals. You see "them" as the other.

If you saw them as regular everyday people that you yourself could be related to you'd be flabbergasted by the response of the mainstream.

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

we should question why the colonizers didn’t screen the natives and their traditions and culture better before deciding to settle here. I immigrated to Canada 7 years ago and I of course never expected myself (let alone: the people around me) to live here under the same rules, tradition, culture, religion or language as in my native Germany, so why would anyone defend (even implicitly) such an attitude amongst the so-called “founding fathers” of this country?

Does this mean we should give Angloland back toe ethnic celts?

Why did your anglo saxon ancestors decide to murder and slave the ancient britons?

This is just a bizarre line of thinking.

Unless it is a property claim you can't reference anything that happened before your time, it is just directly amoral.

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

To be clear: the blockages absolutely suck for every employee or passenger of VIA Rail, but being an employee myself doesn’t stop me from acknowledging that the protestors may have a valid point,

Actually they don't. They are not in any way related to the native groups in BC who are protesting. If you aren't grouping "them" together this is obvious.

They are sabotaging the best way of fighting global warming.

And the only credibility to this is that "they" are owed some unjustified legal power where they are literally above the law.

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

which they most probably could never make heard within the means the law (or the courts) allow. It’s not much different than workers going on strike: it doesn’t achieve much until it starts to actually hurt the employers’ customers and (unfortunately) inevitably also the general public.

I'm not sure what to say. I'd suggest looking into how the law and logic works. Maybe take some LSAT preparation exams.

Breaking the law to get your way seems like a rather direct violation of the rule of law. It is pretty simple.

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

It’s therefore the responsibility of lawmakers, judges and police leaders (i.e. the legislative, judicature and executive powers of the state) to weigh the interests of the protestors (to be heard and to create pressure) and those of the public (to live their day-to-day lives un-inconvenienced by these protests) and it certainly goes beyond the scope of this thread (or even forum) to discuss where to draw the line...

Pardon? This is a democracy, this is a public form that regularly engages in discussions in politics. This sounds like an appeal to silencing people.

I donno I have status so I'm not gonna be bullied into submission on this one.

You want to say "my people" have the right to break the law etc, I'm gonna clarify that my people are not above the law and have free speech.

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

That said, I desperately hope that the conflict gets resolved within the next days, as VIA can’t fulfill its mandate to serve this Nation (which is its only justification to depend on taxpayer money) if it doesn’t have track access to operate its passenger trains and a railroad which doesn’t operate any trains ceases to be a railroad...

I'd like to hope things will be better but this is gonna do a whole lot of damage to viarail. The funny part is this will likely be something the left will never ever take responsibility for.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

[...]

Blablabla, whatever, Troll!

Please move your belligerent monologues somewhere else, so that we can return to discussing the topic at hand.

Thank you and have a great evening!