VIA Rail

[J81]

Originally Posted by roger1818

They don't say so I can only guess. If I did have to wager a guess, it would be upgrades to the Newcastle sub. I seem to remember that earlier in this thread someone said that it is severely speed limited. It could be not so much that they can't use RDCs but that it isn't feasible to run a intercity service (regardless of the equipment type) with the current speed limits.



It is very similar to what was said in the 2018 plan, so that doesn't jive with what you are saying.

Can you go back and find the corporate plan from 10 years ago? Id be curious to see whats in that. From my years on the railway ive heard all kinds of stories and seen all kinds of plans. Very few ever materialize especially when it comes to VIA. Thats where my position comes from.

When it comes to the infrastructure improvements i questioned you about, i can tell you for a fact that RDCs could operate on the Newcastle sub right now and the trip times would be shorter than the current ocean. The only thing that might need to be done is perhaps the switches put in at Birch Ridge siding so they could meet CN train 569 on its return to miramichi.

The section of the Newcastle sub from Rogersville to Bathurst is still 30mph. Its about 60 miles. Since there is no freight traffic between Bathurst and Miramichi the odds of that section being upgraded by CN is basically zero. Just for comparison, between London and Stratford on the Guelph sub, the track is only good for 40mph and that line is busier than the Newcastle by a factor of 10.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by J81

Can you go back and find the corporate plan from 10 years ago? Id be curious to see whats in that. From my years on the railway ive heard all kinds of stories and seen all kinds of plans. Very few ever materialize especially when it comes to VIA. Thats where my position comes from.

When it comes to the infrastructure improvements i questioned you about, i can tell you for a fact that RDCs could operate on the Newcastle sub right now and the trip times would be shorter than the current ocean. The only thing that might need to be done is perhaps the switches put in at Birch Ridge siding so they could meet CN train 569 on its return to miramichi.

The section of the Newcastle sub from Rogersville to Bathurst is still 30mph. Its about 60 miles. Since there is no freight traffic between Bathurst and Miramichi the odds of that section being upgraded by CN is basically zero. Just for comparison, between London and Stratford on the Guelph sub, the track is only good for 40mph and that line is busier than the Newcastle by a factor of 10.

I really wonder if the CN will finally abandon the Newcastle sub. The NB-CN agreement could be ended in 2019 if traffic was not up, and it was not? The CN could now in theory abandon the line.

[lrt's friend]

Shouldn't VIA purchase track that they use rather than allow it to be abandoned? This seems to be the perfect opportunity to gain control, priority and have the right to make track improvements as funds become available. This is exactly what happened between Coteau and Ottawa and Ottawa and Brockville, which is now the poster child for the HFR concept.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Shouldn't VIA purchase track that they use rather than allow it to be abandoned? This seems to be the perfect opportunity to gain control, priority and have the right to make track improvements as funds become available. This is exactly what happened between Coteau and Ottawa and Ottawa and Brockville, which is now the poster child for the HFR concept.

Ottawa-Brockville hosts as many VIA trains (20, though not these days, but that’s a different story...) on a single day as the Newcastle Sub does in more than 3 weeks. Also, the acquisition of assets is considered a “capital expenditure” and therefore needs to be explicitly approved and allocated through the federal budget...

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Shouldn't VIA purchase track that they use rather than allow it to be abandoned? This seems to be the perfect opportunity to gain control, priority and have the right to make track improvements as funds become available. This is exactly what happened between Coteau and Ottawa and Ottawa and Brockville, which is now the poster child for the HFR concept.

That was in their 2018-2020 plan but I doubt it will happen. Didn't happen for the Gaspé train nor HFR, yet.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Shouldn't VIA purchase track that they use rather than allow it to be abandoned? This seems to be the perfect opportunity to gain control, priority and have the right to make track improvements as funds become available. This is exactly what happened between Coteau and Ottawa and Ottawa and Brockville, which is now the poster child for the HFR concept.

Rather than focusing on the Newcastle sub would it not make more sense for VIA to focus on switching over to the Edmundston-Grand Falls-Chipman-Moncton CN line? It doesn't hit the population centres of Rimouski/Riviere-du-Loup/Campbellton/Bathurst/Miramichi but it looks like a more straightforward route and should cut some time off The Ocean's distance (by my very rough estimation the southern route is 100-125km shorter) and travel times barring needed upgrades to that route. I seem to recall seeing numbers at some point about the passenger usage on The Ocean and the connecting towns and villages on the Newcastle sub but I can't remember what the findings were.

Would be great if Fredericton could be looped in on that CN line but as it stands it looks like it crosses just north of Nashwaak Bridge.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Ottawa-Brockville hosts as many VIA trains (20, though not these days, but that’s a different story...) on a single day as the Newcastle Sub does in more than 3 weeks. Also, the acquisition of assets os considered a “capital expenditure” and therefore needs to be explicitly approved and allocated through the federal budget...

Agreed. If anyone should buy it, it should be the New Brunswick provincial government.

Originally Posted by p_xavier

That was in their 2018-2020 plan but I doubt it will happen. Didn't happen for the Gaspé train nor HFR, yet.

Where does it say VIA wants to buy the track from CN? The Gaspé line should be bought by Quebec. As for HFR, give it time.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Agreed. If anyone should buy it, it should be the New Brunswick provincial government.



Where does it say VIA wants to buy the track from CN? The Gaspé line should be bought by Quebec. As for HFR, give it time.

The NB government already invested in keeping it open in the hope that new customers for the CN would use it, that didn't materialize.

hhttps://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/media/pdfs/About_VIA/our-company/corporate-plan/Corporate_Plan2018.pdf

[Fischbob]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Rather than focusing on the Newcastle sub would it not make more sense for VIA to focus on switching over to the Edmundston-Grand Falls-Chipman-Moncton CN line? It doesn't hit the population centres of Rimouski/Riviere-du-Loup/Campbellton/Bathurst/Miramichi but it looks like a more straightforward route and should cut some time off The Ocean's distance (by my very rough estimation the southern route is 100-125km shorter) and travel times barring needed upgrades to that route. I seem to recall seeing numbers at some point about the passenger usage on The Ocean and the connecting towns and villages on the Newcastle sub but I can't remember what the findings were.

I would often take The Ocean to get back to NB for the holidays when I was in university and have always considered this change to be low-hanging fruit for VIA to improve the line's efficiency. The shorter distance and presumably higher speeds possible on the CN mainline would likely shave hours off the journey to Moncton, especially considering how painfully slow the Campbellton-Bathurst-Miramichi-Moncton leg has always been.

Currently, The Ocean leaves Montreal at 7pm, gets into Moncton around 1:30pm the next day and doesn't make it to Halifax until almost 6pm - 22 hours end to end with the time change. Between the time savings from using the mainline route and if necessary, a bit extra from adjusting the Montreal departure time (and eliminating that strange detour to Ste-Foy), if the train could be made to get to Moncton in the early-to-mid morning and Halifax by early afternoon, it improves the value proposition significantly and may even enable greater frequency on the route with the same overall number of trainsets.

This reorganized Maritime service could be implemented along with the RDC service that has been contemplated in the past in order to maintain links from Moncton to Campbellton, and I wouldn't mind seeing a Moncton-Saint John branch too as well as more frequent daily service from Moncton to Halifax. I'm not holding my breath though.

[J81]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Rather than focusing on the Newcastle sub would it not make more sense for VIA to focus on switching over to the Edmundston-Grand Falls-Chipman-Moncton CN line? It doesn't hit the population centres of Rimouski/Riviere-du-Loup/Campbellton/Bathurst/Miramichi but it looks like a more straightforward route and should cut some time off The Ocean's distance (by my very rough estimation the southern route is 100-125km shorter) and travel times barring needed upgrades to that route. I seem to recall seeing numbers at some point about the passenger usage on The Ocean and the connecting towns and villages on the Newcastle sub but I can't remember what the findings were.

Would be great if Fredericton could be looped in on that CN line but as it stands it looks like it crosses just north of Nashwaak Bridge.

If you put the Ocean on the NTR and bypass all of the communities you just mentioned it will kill that train. People on this forum don’t understand how much of the Oceans business comes from those communities. It would be great if we had daily service with route alternating from the NTR to the ICR but thats a pipe dream. The problem with the NTR is there is literally nothing but woods for 160 miles between Moncton and Plaster Rock aside from tiny little Chipman. The closest the train comes to Fredericton is at McGivney which is a 40 minute drive. After that you have Grand Falls and Edmundston. Once you leave NB and into Quebec there isnt a population center until you hit La Pocatiere. Not a lot of business opportunities for the train through there as you can see.

The Ocean needs to stay where it is. If the track got fixed and that ridiculous stop at St Foy got moved back out to Charny it would get the arrival time into Moncton back to around 10-1030 where it always used to be. You’d be in Halifax by 4. I doubt itll ever happen though.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by J81

If you put the Ocean on the NTR and bypass all of the communities you just mentioned it will kill that train. People on this forum don’t understand how much of the Oceans business comes from those communities.....

Yes!

I was on the Ocean last month. We had about 10 in Sleeper and 30 in Coach out of Halifax.....but boy did we fill from Moncton west. Besides the usual stops in Bathurst, Campbellton, Rimouski etc.....we were also stopping in smaller communities like Rogersville, Petit Rocher and Amqui.

[ghYHZ]

For a couple of years in the late 1960s....the Ocean did run via Edmundston on the NTR but by 1970 is was back on it's former route through Bathurst, Campbellton, Rimouski where the population is. It was replaced on the NTR with separate local RDC 'Railiners' between Moncton and Edmundston.....and between Edmundston and Charny/Quebec City. (overnight stopover in Edmundston required)

The Edmundston-Charny route back then is different than what a train via the NTR would follow today. In the late '70s a 20 mile cut-off was built between Pelletier on the NTR down to St. Andre Jct on the Montmagny Subdivision, 15 miles west of Riviere-du-Loup. This eventually allowed about 160 miles of the old Monk Subdivision's slow track with it's twists and turns up in the Notre-Dame Mountains between Pelletier and Joffre Yard to be abandoned.....and get trains down to the fast straight track of the Montmagny Sub in the St. Lawrence Valley.

The Edmundston – Charny RDC Railiners never run on the new cut-off but stayed up on the old Monk Sub until they were discontinued in 1979.

October 1968 Timetable below (Ocean via Edmundston)







October 1971 Timetable below (RDC's via Edmundston in Table 10)

[ghYHZ]

Back in 2004 I got to do a 'Rare Mileage Run' on the Ocean when it was detoured through Edmundston and the Pelletier Cut-off due to a derailment on it's usual route via Campbellton. Here's a link to that Trip Report:

http://www.railroad.net/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=1318&p=8095&hilit=Pelletier#p8095

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by J81

If you put the Ocean on the NTR and bypass all of the communities you just mentioned it will kill that train. People on this forum don’t understand how much of the Oceans business comes from those communities. It would be great if we had daily service with route alternating from the NTR to the ICR but thats a pipe dream. The problem with the NTR is there is literally nothing but woods for 160 miles between Moncton and Plaster Rock aside from tiny little Chipman. The closest the train comes to Fredericton is at McGivney which is a 40 minute drive. After that you have Grand Falls and Edmundston. Once you leave NB and into Quebec there isnt a population center until you hit La Pocatiere. Not a lot of business opportunities for the train through there as you can see.

The Ocean needs to stay where it is. If the track got fixed and that ridiculous stop at St Foy got moved back out to Charny it would get the arrival time into Moncton back to around 10-1030 where it always used to be. You’d be in Halifax by 4. I doubt itll ever happen though.

I know the reason is finances and money and all the usual excuses... but it seems to me the obvious question is "Why not both?"

Run the Ocean on the main route so travelers from Montreal to Moncton and Nova Scotia can go direct more or less. And have a stub train that goes up to Northern NB and the Gaspe to Montreal along the old route to serve those communities.

If the train is so important to those communities, than they should be able to support a line that isn't part of the overall Ocean. And they could pick up the rest of the rail network at Montreal and Moncton (or more likely QC and Moncton).

It would also restore Moncton as a hub; especially if it could be extended to add rail service to Saint John and another line for more regular service to Halifax.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

I know the reason is finances and money and all the usual excuses... but it seems to me the obvious question is "Why not both?"

Run the Ocean on the main route so travelers from Montreal to Moncton and Nova Scotia can go direct more or less. And have a stub train that goes up to Northern NB and the Gaspe to Montreal along the old route to serve those communities.

If the train is so important to those communities, than they should be able to support a line that isn't part of the overall Ocean. And they could pick up the rest of the rail network at Montreal and Moncton (or more likely QC and Moncton).

It would also restore Moncton as a hub; especially if it could be extended to add rail service to Saint John and another line for more regular service to Halifax.

Exactly, that would be the best plan. Faster route to Moncton and new city deserved.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

It would also restore Moncton as a hub; especially if it could be extended to add rail service to Saint John and another line for more regular service to Halifax.

Somebody with more rail knowledge than me can certainly chime in but I think one of the issues with connecting to SJ is that the SJ portion of the line is owned by NB Southern Railway...and the owner of NBSR has a vested interest in the automobile being the preferred mode of transport for just about everyone.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Somebody with more rail knowledge than me can certainly chime in but I think one of the issues with connecting to SJ is that the SJ portion of the line is owned by NB Southern Railway...and the owner of NBSR has a vested interest in the automobile being the preferred mode of transport for just about everyone.

The rail line between Moncton and Saint John is CN. Beyond SJ....and into Maine is owned by NB Southern and Eastern Maine Railway.

From Brownville Jct west....is the Central Maine & Quebec.....which CP is in the process of re-acquiring after selling it in 1994. The route of the Atlantic Limited

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

The rail line between Moncton and Saint John is CN. Beyond SJ....and into Maine is owned by NB Southern and Maine Eastern.

The Canadian Rail Atlas has NBSR taking over the line in McAllister in SJ (essentially almost as soon as you enter City of Saint John):

https://rac.jmaponline.net/canadianrailatlas/

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The Canadian Rail Atlas has NBSR taking over the line in McAllister in SJ (essentially almost as soon as you enter City of Saint John):

https://rac.jmaponline.net/canadianrailatlas/

CN runs to the Potash Terminal. Speculation of one of the reasons why CP is re-acquiring the CMQ is to capture this traffic from CN and route is across Maine and on to the NBSR.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The Canadian Rail Atlas has NBSR taking over the line in McAllister in SJ (essentially almost as soon as you enter City of Saint John)

That's pretty close to where CN's Saint John Station was out on Rothesay Ave.



After VIA took over the Atlantic Ltd and extended it through to Halifax.....VIA built a new station downtown (near the Harbour Station Arena)....then built another station there just before the Atlantic was discontinued in Dec 1994. It's now the Maritime Bus Depot.