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  #1081  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2018, 4:00 PM
TheRitsman TheRitsman is offline
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Originally Posted by ScreamingViking View Post
Due time indeed. I think much of the local impatience comes from what's been promised, multiple times, in the past. But there's a very real difference between the political promises, and what's possible given the interests of CN and CP and the freight demand on the tracks leading into Hamilton.

It's a complicated part of the corridor. Metrolinx needs to negotiate with the two private railways who have ZERO incentive to accommodate passenger rail, and invest a lot of money to improve the infrastructure (adding track, new rail grade separations) to provide new capacity for the additional passenger service while still keeping those companies happy. This is going to take time.

The benefits will be worth it though.
Hunter is still supposed to see all day hourly service next year though right? According to Metrolink website that is still the case. Though I would suspect it to be like December 2019 because it just listed 2019.
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  #1082  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2018, 7:17 AM
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Originally Posted by TheRitsman View Post
Hunter is still supposed to see all day hourly service next year though right? According to Metrolink website that is still the case. Though I would suspect it to be like December 2019 because it just listed 2019.
That seems unlikely to me to actually happen, but who knows maybe this time things will be different.

The first post in this thread, in September 2008

New GO trains for Hamilton?

The Hamilton Spectator Wire Services

Hamilton could see express GO rail service from downtown Toronto to Hamilton, as well as Oshawa, Brampton, Richmond Hill and Mississauga, running every 15 minutes, every day.

That revelation comes from a confidential draft plan for combatting commuter congestion in the Toronto area.

The report calls for spending $55 billion over 25 years on a network of new subway light-rail lines, improved commuter rail, express bus routes and longer, wider roads.

The blueprint was drawn up by Metrolinx, the provincial transportation agency.

A copy was obtained by The Globe and Mail, which published details today.

Check back for further details later.


The third post is kind of funny:

Great news if it happens.

On a side note, I heard yesterday that GO Transit is eliminating Rush Hour Bus service between Hamilton and Union Station on January 1, 2009.


Last edited by drpgq; Oct 1, 2018 at 7:17 AM. Reason: 2008 not 2018
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  #1083  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2018, 12:00 AM
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Grimsby GO station plan ‘will be stopped’
Provincial government says Niagara GO stations require public-private partnership to move ahead

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/9...l-be-stopped-/

GRIMSBY — Niagara Region is seeking answers about the future of local GO train service after a Thursday letter from Metrolinx said the "delivery process" of new GO stations — including the planned station in Grimsby — has been halted.

The letter, citing a recent statement by Minister of Transportation Jeff Yurek, said the provincial government is seeking third-party investment to build new GO stations in Ontario.

"Not only can this approach save tax dollars and exponentially grow transit ridership, it will create and leverage the true value of transit and deliver much more than just transit stations; it will deliver local integrated built environments that offer the services people want at the doorstep of where people will live, work and play," said the letter written by Phil Verster, president and CEO of Metrolinx.

The letter does not indicate what this may mean for the planned GO transit line, currently scheduled to run trains from Niagara Falls to Toronto by 2023.

"We have received the letter issued by Metrolinx CEO Phil Verster last evening outlining a new direction for Transit Oriented Development at any new GO stations. We are actively reviewing the new policy direction contained in the letter, what it means for Niagara's GO expansion and have reached out to Metrolinx requesting further clarity," said Matt Robinson, the director of Niagara Region's GO Implementation Office, in a statement Friday.

Government sources told The Standard that adopting a new "market based" approach to building GO stations was announced as a priority for future GO stations this week with little fanfare or advance notice.

Underpinning the idea is that the provincial government no longer wants to fund, own and operate GO stations and wants private sector business as partners and stations integrated with commercial and residential development, the sources say.

The proposed stations in the current GO Niagara plan, approved under the previous Liberal government, were designed with the assumption they were going to be entirely built and funded with public money and may not be compatible with development beyond the stations and parking lots.

The Niagara GO project is now in the late planning phases for station design and it is not clear how the government's new direction may impact that process.

Grimsby MPP Sam Oosterhoff — Niagara's only government MPP — did not respond to an interview request from The Standard for this story.

Metrolinx confirmed Friday that planned construction of the Confederation GO station in east Hamilton is going ahead as scheduled. Construction tenders for that project were released earlier this month and the $35 million station is supposed to be ready for commuter train service in 2019.

Niagara Falls Mayor Jim Diodati said the letter caught him off guard, but he is not disappointed.

"It doesn't have to be all government built and government run. I don't see this as stopping anything. They are still ordering trains. They are still rebuilding track. They are changing signalling equipment. There are so many aspects to it," he said.
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  #1084  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2018, 4:55 AM
ZTrade ZTrade is offline
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chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20181206/20181206_BoardMtg_GO_Expansion_Full_Business_Case.PDF

page 51 for info about Hamilton expansion.
-AM PEAK: Hourly trains from Hamilton GO, West Harb, Confed
-OFF PEAK: all day Houly trains from confed & west harb, nothing from Hamilton GO

I didn't find any info about when this starts, maybe when confed opens?
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  #1085  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2018, 11:46 AM
thistleclub thistleclub is offline
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GO Expansion Full Business Case

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Originally Posted by ZTrade View Post
page 51 for info about Hamilton expansion.
-AM PEAK: Hourly trains from Hamilton GO, West Harb, Confed
-OFF PEAK: all day Houly trains from confed & west harb, nothing from Hamilton GO

I didn't find any info about when this starts, maybe when confed opens?
Page 78 & 81 indicate “After GO Expansion” (with the equally vague caveat, on page 44-45, that “Modifications to Reference Train Service Plan May be made in advance of procurement based on train simulation.”) Which would suggest they’ve finished all RER expansions.

Possibly when Aldershot-like ridership materializes, or when Grimsby-Niagara is built out through P3 arrangements.

Metrolinx had previously forecast its service expansions on a 10-year horizon, so 2029 or thereabouts might be a ballpark. Curiously, their Initial Business Case had the opposite scenario in mind. Could be new CEO Verster putting his stamp on things.
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  #1086  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2018, 12:00 PM
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The business case shows 2025 service levels - with service ramping up between now and then every year.

What I'm really interested in is the travel time savings. For example, travel times from Burlington GO to downtown will go from 56 minutes in peak and 62 minutes off peak, to 45 minutes all day. That's going to make that type of commute a lot easier and more time competitive to driving. Oakville especially is going to be super easy to go downtown - a 30 minute travel time and 6 trains per hour. That's not too more difficult than many areas in Toronto with TTC coverage today.
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  #1087  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2018, 12:47 PM
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Because of the limits of electrification plans, significant travel time savings are mainly anticipated at Burlington and stations east. Hamilton stations and Aldershot are pegged at a 1-minute time savings over the present status quo, which pales next to Burlington’s 9-minute savings and gives Hamilton's peak-period motorists another reason to commute out of Burlington. Under this forecast, an east-end commuter can shave almost half an hour off their commute by driving to Burlington GO rather than Confederation GO (less the time it takes to drive to the station), and have more frequent service to boot.

ETA: The 2031/2055 ridership change forecasts on pages 78 & 79 would seem to support this hypothesis.
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  #1088  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2018, 4:34 PM
TheRitsman TheRitsman is offline
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Because of the limits of electrification plans, significant travel time savings are mainly anticipated at Burlington and stations east. Hamilton stations and Aldershot are pegged at a 1-minute time savings over the present status quo, which pales next to Burlington’s 9-minute savings and gives Hamilton's peak-period motorists another reason to commute out of Burlington. Under this forecast, an east-end commuter can shave almost half an hour off their commute by driving to Burlington GO rather than Confederation GO (less the time it takes to drive to the station), and have more frequent service to boot.

ETA: The 2031/2055 ridership change forecasts on pages 78 & 79 would seem to support this hypothesis.
I find it interesting that they don't expect more ridership from Confederation Go.
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  #1089  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2018, 7:39 PM
thistleclub thistleclub is offline
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I find it interesting that they don't expect more ridership from Confederation Go.
Station / AM Peak Trains Per Hour / Off-Peak Trains Per Hour / Minutes to Union

Confederation GO: 2 / 1 / 74
Hamilton GO: 1 / 0 / 74
West Harbour GO: 2 / 1 / 68
Aldershot GO: 5 / 3 / 61
Burlington GO: 9 / 5 / 45

West Harbour GO to Aldershot GO: 10 minute drive
Hamilton GO to Aldershot GO: 11 minute drive
Confederation GO to Aldershot GO: 14 minute drive

Confederation GO to Burlington GO: 12 minute drive
West Harbour GO to Burlington GO: 14 minute drive
Hamilton GO to Burlington GO: 16 minute drive

*Google Maps, mid-afternoon. Results may vary.
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  #1090  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2018, 8:23 PM
TheRitsman TheRitsman is offline
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Originally Posted by thistleclub View Post
Station / AM Peak Trains Per Hour / Off-Peak Trains Per Hour / Minutes to Union

Confederation GO: 2 / 1 / 74
Hamilton GO: 1 / 0 / 74
West Harbour GO: 2 / 1 / 68
Aldershot GO: 5 / 3 / 61
Burlington GO: 9 / 5 / 45

West Harbour GO to Aldershot GO: 10 minute drive
Hamilton GO to Aldershot GO: 11 minute drive
Confederation GO to Aldershot GO: 14 minute drive

Confederation GO to Burlington GO: 12 minute drive
West Harbour GO to Burlington GO: 14 minute drive
Hamilton GO to Burlington GO: 16 minute drive
Okay, so first Confederation to Burlington Go is a 14 minute drive. Secondly, the morning train from Burlington Go that my girlfriend takes into Toronto leaves at 8:09AM, and at that time, the drive from Confederation Go to Burlington Go is 18-35 minutes depending on traffic.

I do hope they can improve the speed as much as they are saying, but from what I understand, I am not sure how the time savings they are advertising are going to happen. Electrification alone will not bring the time savings advertised.
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  #1091  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2018, 9:05 PM
thistleclub thistleclub is offline
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Okay, so first Confederation to Burlington Go is a 14 minute drive. Secondly, the morning train from Burlington Go that my girlfriend takes into Toronto leaves at 8:09AM, and at that time, the drive from Confederation Go to Burlington Go is 18-35 minutes depending on traffic.
Going off GoogleMaps, as I don't commute LSW with any regularity.

AM service at Hamilton GO & West Harbour currently operates between 4:15 a.m. and 7:18 a.m. Confederation's times would be a few minutes earlier than that, and offering hourly service off-peak.

Miss your train and you can wait for up to an hour at Confederation GO and spend half an hour by rail to get to Burlington GO... or drive 18-35 minutes to Burlington GO and board a train in minutes.

Not all commuters will want to or be able to drive, but the value proposition seems a little asymmetrical.
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  #1092  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2018, 9:31 PM
TheRitsman TheRitsman is offline
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Originally Posted by thistleclub View Post
Going off GoogleMaps, as I don't commute LSW with any regularity.

AM service at Hamilton GO & West Harbour currently operates between 4:15 a.m. and 7:18 a.m. Confederation's times would be a few minutes earlier than that, and offering hourly service off-peak.

Miss your train and you can wait for up to an hour at Confederation GO and spend half an hour by rail to get to Burlington GO... or drive 18-35 minutes to Burlington GO and board a train in minutes.

Not all commuters will want to or be able to drive, but the value proposition seems a little asymmetrical.
That is fair. I was pointing out the potential numbers involved. Further, with 45 minute service to Union, I would bet the parking lot at Burlington becomes a lot more full, and therefore traffic would likely become worse than it is today.

Beyond that, I can see many choosing 1h14m commute on train over a 1 hour commute driving to Burlington Station for a few reasons:

- Consistency. This is the reason I see many people talk about. Bad weather, pulled over car, crash, and many other factors including just increased cars can increase the time to and from Toronto. The train is pretty consistent, where as driving can, not be at times.

- Comfort. Sitting on a train, especially if you are at the start of the line is a lot more comfortable compared to driving, especially in stop and go.

- Comfort (again). As Go Trains roll out WiFi, more people are going to choose taking the train. Imagine being able to do much of your online day during your comfortable commute? Some workplaces may even allow you to work on the train, so I could see 1h in the morning, and 1h in the evening being work, and you would only need to be in the office 10-4.

- Safety. This one is pretty obvious.

- Price: While the Go Train is horrendously expensive, as car costs continue to rise with the price of gas, I can see many who do not have a car, or only have one car per family choosing this, especially if Hamilton gets its act together on transit within the city.

- Price: With the potential for the Go Train to become self-sustaining, the price of a fare may decrease. It makes sense to decrease the fare once regular service is in place. Even if it costs a bit, it is likely cheaper than putting more money into the QEW and other highways. The Go Train in its future state will likely be multiple times more efficient than improving car travel lanes.

I suspect downtown Toronto will eventually get a congestion charge. I can't see the city hitting 3million with an area around it of 10 million not getting one.
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  #1093  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2018, 10:03 PM
thistleclub thistleclub is offline
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That is fair. I was pointing out the potential numbers involved. Further, with 45 minute service to Union, I would bet the parking lot at Burlington becomes a lot more full, and therefore traffic would likely become worse than it is today.

Beyond that, I can see many choosing 1h14m commute on train over a 1 hour commute driving to Burlington Station for a few reasons:

- Consistency. This is the reason I see many people talk about. Bad weather, pulled over car, crash, and many other factors including just increased cars can increase the time to and from Toronto. The train is pretty consistent, where as driving can, not be at times.

- Comfort. Sitting on a train, especially if you are at the start of the line is a lot more comfortable compared to driving, especially in stop and go.

- Comfort (again). As Go Trains roll out WiFi, more people are going to choose taking the train. Imagine being able to do much of your online day during your comfortable commute? Some workplaces may even allow you to work on the train, so I could see 1h in the morning, and 1h in the evening being work, and you would only need to be in the office 10-4.

- Safety. This one is pretty obvious.

- Price: While the Go Train is horrendously expensive, as car costs continue to rise with the price of gas, I can see many who do not have a car, or only have one car per family choosing this, especially if Hamilton gets its act together on transit within the city.

- Price: With the potential for the Go Train to become self-sustaining, the price of a fare may decrease. It makes sense to decrease the fare once regular service is in place. Even if it costs a bit, it is likely cheaper than putting more money into the QEW and other highways. The Go Train in its future state will likely be multiple times more efficient than improving car travel lanes.

I suspect downtown Toronto will eventually get a congestion charge. I can't see the city hitting 3million with an area around it of 10 million not getting one.
I'm onside with you and agree that induced demand will eventually create congestion that dissuades some commuters from making that trek by car. (Maybe not an hour to travel that distance, as you anticipate, but substantially more than the status quo.)

Some may opt to take the 101 Express from King & James, a half-hour sprint along York/Plains/Fairview to Burlington GO.

Setting aside the time savings and the unknown GO user cost (currently $1.25 fare gap between Hamilton GO and Burlington GO), the lopsided service frequency between Burlington and Confederation (5:1) is the wild card.

If you're talking about competing with the car, convenience is key. Not having to kill an hour on a platform is a bonus for many motorists. Not all, but many. And that will likely dampen ridership numbers west of Aldershot.
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  #1094  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2018, 1:53 AM
TheRitsman TheRitsman is offline
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I'm onside with you and agree that induced demand will eventually create congestion that dissuades some commuters from making that trek by car. (Maybe not an hour to travel that distance, as you anticipate, but substantially more than the status quo.)
I was referring to total times, not time to drive fyi
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  #1095  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2018, 2:27 AM
thistleclub thistleclub is offline
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I was referring to total times, not time to drive fyi
Fair enough.

As I say, some will find that hourly service suits their schedule. Others may be sufficiently intrigued by Burlington’s enhanced service levels that they risk the drive despite the fact that their total commute may only end up being be a few minutes shorter. Motorists are curious creatures.

Page 78:

Burlington GO ridership is forecast to increase by 40-80% by 2031, with daily station ridership predicted to be 8K-16K.

Hamilton GO ridership is forecast to increase 0-10% by 2031, with daily ridership predicted to be 1K-2K.

West Harbour GO ridership is forecast to increase by 10-20% by 2031, with daily station ridership predicted to be <1K.

Confederation GO ridership is not included in this forecast modelling, but a 2013 GO forecast predicted a daily ridership of 150 by 2031.

Time will tell.
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  #1096  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2018, 4:57 PM
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I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, especially if the province forced municipalities to allow a big tower/towers at the stations (like Mimico on the GO although maybe that's not a great example). I think it would have been great if there was a tower at West Harbour over the objections of Thorne and Robichaud and various NIMBYs like Turkstra and NEN, rather than the province wasting a colossal amount of money on a white elephant station.

Quote:
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Grimsby GO station plan ‘will be stopped’
Provincial government says Niagara GO stations require public-private partnership to move ahead

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/9...l-be-stopped-/

GRIMSBY — Niagara Region is seeking answers about the future of local GO train service after a Thursday letter from Metrolinx said the "delivery process" of new GO stations — including the planned station in Grimsby — has been halted.

The letter, citing a recent statement by Minister of Transportation Jeff Yurek, said the provincial government is seeking third-party investment to build new GO stations in Ontario.

"Not only can this approach save tax dollars and exponentially grow transit ridership, it will create and leverage the true value of transit and deliver much more than just transit stations; it will deliver local integrated built environments that offer the services people want at the doorstep of where people will live, work and play," said the letter written by Phil Verster, president and CEO of Metrolinx.

The letter does not indicate what this may mean for the planned GO transit line, currently scheduled to run trains from Niagara Falls to Toronto by 2023.

"We have received the letter issued by Metrolinx CEO Phil Verster last evening outlining a new direction for Transit Oriented Development at any new GO stations. We are actively reviewing the new policy direction contained in the letter, what it means for Niagara's GO expansion and have reached out to Metrolinx requesting further clarity," said Matt Robinson, the director of Niagara Region's GO Implementation Office, in a statement Friday.

Government sources told The Standard that adopting a new "market based" approach to building GO stations was announced as a priority for future GO stations this week with little fanfare or advance notice.

Underpinning the idea is that the provincial government no longer wants to fund, own and operate GO stations and wants private sector business as partners and stations integrated with commercial and residential development, the sources say.

The proposed stations in the current GO Niagara plan, approved under the previous Liberal government, were designed with the assumption they were going to be entirely built and funded with public money and may not be compatible with development beyond the stations and parking lots.

The Niagara GO project is now in the late planning phases for station design and it is not clear how the government's new direction may impact that process.

Grimsby MPP Sam Oosterhoff — Niagara's only government MPP — did not respond to an interview request from The Standard for this story.

Metrolinx confirmed Friday that planned construction of the Confederation GO station in east Hamilton is going ahead as scheduled. Construction tenders for that project were released earlier this month and the $35 million station is supposed to be ready for commuter train service in 2019.

Niagara Falls Mayor Jim Diodati said the letter caught him off guard, but he is not disappointed.

"It doesn't have to be all government built and government run. I don't see this as stopping anything. They are still ordering trains. They are still rebuilding track. They are changing signalling equipment. There are so many aspects to it," he said.
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  #1097  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2018, 7:45 PM
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I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, especially if the province forced municipalities to allow a big tower/towers at the stations (like Mimico on the GO although maybe that's not a great example). I think it would have been great if there was a tower at West Harbour over the objections of Thorne and Robichaud and various NIMBYs like Turkstra and NEN, rather than the province wasting a colossal amount of money on a white elephant station.
I went to the public meeting held by the developer for 282 MacNab St N adjacent to the West Harbour station, and it was mostly neighbours fuming over a proposed 12 storey apartment building. The site was a toxic waste dump / eyesore for years. I can imagine the outrage if a tower was proposed.
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  #1098  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2018, 3:21 AM
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West Harbour station now targeted for all-day GO – eventually
New GO expansion plans say all-day train service will go first to West Harbour, not downtown — but don’t hold your breath for 15-minute service.

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/9...go-eventually/

Updated GO expansion plans suggest eagerly awaited all-day commuter trains will arrive first at West Harbour station, rather than downtown — but neither station is guaranteed 15-minute service by 2025.

The service frequency models are included in an expansion business case posted ahead of Thursday's Metrolinx board meeting. The $12-billion-plus plan, which still needs provincial approval, is meant to boost train frequency and speed throughout the sprawling GO network between 2025 and 2030.

As recently as last year, Metrolinx said hourly all-day GO service would be targeted first for the GO Centre on Hunter Street and long-term expansion would bring 15-minute rush hour service to Hamilton.

The new business case suggests hourly all-day service is now destined instead for the West Harbour station on James Street North and coveted 15-minute service will not extend on the Lakeshore West line beyond Burlington — or not by 2025, anyway.

But those service frequency models are not "definitive" and will evolve based on demand and ongoing negotiations with rail corridor owners, said Metrolinx president Phil Verster in an interview Tuesday.

GO Train expansion is much easier on rail lines owned by Metrolinx. But CN owns the harbour-hugging rail corridor that brings GO trains around the bend from Aldershot to West Harbour and beyond to Niagara. Canadian Pacific owns the more southerly line that takes commuter trains to the downtown GO Centre.

Negotiations that could affect GO expansion continue with both rail companies, said Verster, who added the final plan could include a blend of new service to stations on both lines. Regardless, he emphasized Hamilton is still on track for "huge" improvements in GO train service — and residents should start to see incremental changes "long before 2025."

So when will impatient Hamilton GO users see extra trains chugging their way?

Verster would only say the timeline for improved train service should become clearer in the new year. A new $35-million east-end GO station on the same line as the West Harbour station is supposed to be completed in 2019, too. It's unclear when service to that station will start.

Those improvements are already overdue, said Charles de Lannoy.

The assistant professor of chemical engineering lives a 10-minute walk from the West Harbour station — but his wife, who works in Toronto, is forced to drive to Aldershot each day to catch a train.

(Right now, only two Toronto-bound trains leave the station each morning. The last one to return to West Harbour leaves Toronto at 5:15 p.m.)

"We were confident that commuting would be simple using GO trains, but three years after the station opened, there are essentially no practical trains for people who work later than 5 p.m.," he said.

De Lannoy was cautiously optimistic about the apparent new focus on bringing regular, all-day service to the West Harbour — but also eager for an "actual deadline" for service improvements.

City residents have been teased by the prospect of true commuter train service since 2011, when then-premier Dalton McGuinty promised all-day GO service would chug into Hamilton by 2015.

On the other hand, transit-watchers online this week questioned why Metrolinx would downgrade service frequency plans for a downtown GO station that will link to the city's planned $1-billion light rail transit line via a special "high-order pedestrian connection."

Hamilton LRT co-ordinator Kris Jacobson said he didn't anticipate any changes to the planned LRT pedestrian link even if service frequency changes over time at Hamilton GO Centre. "Wherever the details end up, they will both be important transit centres," he said.
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  #1099  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2018, 4:15 PM
drpgq drpgq is offline
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Considering the first post in this thread is September 2008, I'm wondering, can CP and CN just say no indefinitely? Because there definitely doesn't seem to be a lot of progress here at all, just words and more words over the years from Metrolinx. How hard would it have been to add two trains later in the day?
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  #1100  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2018, 4:16 PM
drpgq drpgq is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Dalton View Post
I went to the public meeting held by the developer for 282 MacNab St N adjacent to the West Harbour station, and it was mostly neighbours fuming over a proposed 12 storey apartment building. The site was a toxic waste dump / eyesore for years. I can imagine the outrage if a tower was proposed.
That's why I would prefer the province to override the municipality for transit node situations like this.
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